If existing original monumention were really the be all end all for a highway right of way...consider the following:
A single lane state highway built in 1964, with every right of way monument still in place. A new survey is conducted, and the following results published:
Starting at station 10+00 right of width = 99.99'
Station 19+99.99 width = 100.02'
Station 30+00.01 width = 99.98'
Station 39+99.95 width = 100.02'
Next, to confirm the above results a second crew is sent out. Their results:
Station 10+00 width = 99.98'
Station 20+00.01 width = 100.01'
Station 30+00.02 width = 99.99'
Station 39+99.96 width = 100.01
Then, after additional crews were dispatched, all reporting slightly different right of way widths, the DOT announced they had no idea what today's right of way width was for the original 100' right of way obtained in 1964. However, they were able to state a right of way width range more or less from 99.98' to 100.02'...maybe, that is unless a new crew were to obtain a different result.
Stacy Carroll, post: 439592, member: 150 wrote: Andy, I've heard the same thing about the road being "The" monument. My question is: Has it ever been tried in our state?
Stacy, I don't know of a court case but when the R/W deed calls for X feet left or right of centerline then that distance is what I've always used. Sometimes establishing the exact location of the PC or PT can be a challenge but I have found few R/W monuments (at least those set in the last 40 years) that fit the design data. Bing set by laborers and not verified by a surveyor does not inspire confidence.
Andy Bruner, post: 439798, member: 1123 wrote: Being set by laborers and not verified by a surveyor does not inspire confidence.
A 4" x 4" concrete post marked "DOT" is a hunk of concrete. It becomes a "monument" when (per Black's) it is placed in the ground to help establish the location of a boundary line. If the hunk of concrete is placed by the DOT with no intention to mark an actual boundary corner, only with the intention to provide a witness to the approximate limits of their maintenance for the benefit of their employees or contractors then it may not be a monument. It's a dumb practice, it's irresponsible, it's confusing, but it's not necessary automatically a boundary monument.
When this tread topic reprises every nine months or so i think there are two groups of surveyors discussing the issue both thinking they are discussing the same thing:
Group A - Surveyors in places where the DOT or their contractors regularly sets monuments along the ROW line then retracing surveyor needs to deal with conflict between found monuments and ROW plans.
Group B - Surveyors in places where the DOT or their contractors occasionally set concrete markers (which look similar to survey monuments) at approximate locations on the ROW for maintenance purposes.
Group A thinks Group B are a bunch of unprofessional jack-legs when they talk about ignoring "monuments"; Group B thinks Group A are irresponsible for holding any concrete goat stake they find within 5' of the ROW line.
James Fleming, post: 439801, member: 136 wrote: A 4" x 4" concrete post marked "DOT" is a hunk of concrete. It becomes a "monument" when (per Black's) it is placed in the ground to help establish the location of a boundary line. If the hunk of concrete is placed by the DOT with no intention to mark an actual boundary corner, only with the intention to provide a witness to the approximate limits of their maintenance for the benefit of their employees or contractors then it may not be a monument. It's a dumb practice, it's irresponsible, it's confusing, but it's not necessary automatically a boundary monument.
When this tread topic reprises every nine months or so i think there are two groups of surveyors discussing the issue both thinking they are discussing the same thing:
Group A - Surveyors in places where the DOT or their contractors regularly sets monuments along the ROW line then retracing surveyor needs to deal with conflict between found monuments and ROW plans.
Group B - Surveyors in places where the DOT or their contractors occasionally set concrete markers (which look similar to survey monuments) at approximate locations on the ROW for maintenance purposes.
Group A thinks Group B are a bunch of unprofessional jack-legs when they talk about ignoring "monuments"; Group B thinks Group A are irresponsible for holding any concrete goat stake they find within 5' of the ROW line.
......sounds a lot like all boundary retracement to me.
How is the centerline of the road any better than the ROW Monuments? Didn't the same jackleg road builder install both the road and the markers?
Tom Adams, post: 439804, member: 7285 wrote: How is the centerline of the road any better than the ROW Monuments? Didn't the same jackleg road builder install both the road and the markers?
That's a good question. When retracing State DOT rights of way I generally don't use the road centerline and there are very rarely any ROW monuments.
Tom Adams, post: 439804, member: 7285 wrote: How is the centerline of the road any better than the ROW Monuments? Didn't the same jackleg road builder install both the road and the markers?
State highways get overlaid, adjusted and updated all the time. How do you know where the original CL is in a situation like that? The monument, assuming its in good condition, has not moved since it was set while the road most certainly has. I cannot ever think of a situation where I would hold the centerline of a highway as the monument. I'm sure they exist, just not in my area of work.
In my area the road is typically not even centered on the ROW, curves are flattened out for better 'driving' and such. Entire highways are adjusted within the existing right of way to a configuration entirely different from the original road. Many variables here, the monuments will typically hold.
imaudigger, post: 439686, member: 7286 wrote: I seem to remember some Caltrans right of way maps that had a note stating that the "T" bars w/tags set along the exterior of the right of way were set for fencing purposes only. I don't recall what was stamped on the tag.
I see them held all the time as best available evidence of the R/W. Of the few I have tied...some fit like a glove, others miss record dimensions by feet.Wasn't that long ago this issue was discussed here.
https://surveyorconnect.com/community/threads/dot-boundaries.329781/
James Fleming, post: 439801, member: 136 wrote: A 4" x 4" concrete post marked "DOT" is a hunk of concrete. It becomes a "monument" when (per Black's) it is placed in the ground to help establish the location of a boundary line. If the hunk of concrete is placed by the DOT with no intention to mark an actual boundary corner, only with the intention to provide a witness to the approximate limits of their maintenance for the benefit of their employees or contractors then it may not be a monument. It's a dumb practice, it's irresponsible, it's confusing, but it's not necessary automatically a boundary monument.
When this tread topic reprises every nine months or so i think there are two groups of surveyors discussing the issue both thinking they are discussing the same thing:
Group A - Surveyors in places where the DOT or their contractors regularly sets monuments along the ROW line then retracing surveyor needs to deal with conflict between found monuments and ROW plans.
Group B - Surveyors in places where the DOT or their contractors occasionally set concrete markers (which look similar to survey monuments) at approximate locations on the ROW for maintenance purposes.
Group A thinks Group B are a bunch of unprofessional jack-legs when they talk about ignoring "monuments"; Group B thinks Group A are irresponsible for holding any concrete goat stake they find within 5' of the ROW line.
Based on the fact that the 6x6 Caltrans monuments I typically find (if intact) have a small pin imbedded in the approximate center, my assumption has been that said monuments were intended to mark the ROW line. Unfortunately, in some areas I work, 6x6 monuments are not included on Caltrans Monument maps and no notes are available pertaining to their setting
Thank you for all the replies. Everyone's contribution is much appreciated.
I. Ben Havin, post: 439796, member: 6834 wrote: If existing original monumention were really the be all end all for a highway right of way...consider the following:
A single lane state highway built in 1964, with every right of way monument still in place. A new survey is conducted, and the following results published:
Starting at station 10+00 right of width = 99.99'
Station 19+99.99 width = 100.02'
Station 30+00.01 width = 99.98'
Station 39+99.95 width = 100.02'Next, to confirm the above results a second crew is sent out. Their results:
Station 10+00 width = 99.98'
Station 20+00.01 width = 100.01'
Station 30+00.02 width = 99.99'
Station 39+99.96 width = 100.01Then, after additional crews were dispatched, all reporting slightly different right of way widths, the DOT announced they had no idea what today's right of way width was for the original 100' right of way obtained in 1964. However, they were able to state a right of way width range more or less from 99.98' to 100.02'...maybe, that is unless a new crew were to obtain a different result.
Exactly like any other boundary....and 99.98' feet is still "100 feet".
Kris Morgan, post: 439651, member: 29 wrote: [USER=188]@Glenn Breysacher[/USER] I apologize and agree that brevity is not my long suit. 🙂
Kris,
No apology necessary. I quite enjoyed your post. The use of the term "dissertation" was NOT meant to have a negative connotation in this instance.
aliquot, post: 439884, member: 2486 wrote: Exactly like any other boundary....and 99.98' feet is still "100 feet".
exactly...."100 feet (99.98 as measured) The as-measured distance is another piece of evidence supporting the found monument(s)
I. Ben Havin, post: 439796, member: 6834 wrote: If existing original monumention were really the be all end all for a highway right of way...consider the following:
A single lane state highway built in 1964, with every right of way monument still in place. A new survey is conducted, and the following results published:
Starting at station 10+00 right of width = 99.99'
Station 19+99.99 width = 100.02'
Station 30+00.01 width = 99.98'
Station 39+99.95 width = 100.02'Next, to confirm the above results a second crew is sent out. Their results:
Station 10+00 width = 99.98'
Station 20+00.01 width = 100.01'
Station 30+00.02 width = 99.99'
Station 39+99.96 width = 100.01Then, after additional crews were dispatched, all reporting slightly different right of way widths, the DOT announced they had no idea what today's right of way width was for the original 100' right of way obtained in 1964. However, they were able to state a right of way width range more or less from 99.98' to 100.02'...maybe, that is unless a new crew were to obtain a different result.
Not sure, but hoping it was obvious the purpose of the post was to show how ridiculous it is to state that right of way monumentation controls the width of a highway right of way. Of course, regardless how many times different people make measurements to right of way monumentation the width remains ?? in this case ?? 100'.
Thanks,
ubenhavin
I. Ben Havin, post: 439914, member: 6834 wrote: Not sure, but hoping it was obvious the purpose of the post was to show how ridiculous it is to state that right of way monumentation controls the width of a highway right of way. Of course, regardless how many times different people make measurements to right of way monumentation the width remains ?? in this case ?? 100'.
Thanks,
ubenhavin
I have to go with monumentation more often than not. It seems more ridiculous to ignore the monuments....especially when you measured distances match the original calls so closely.
No one knows exactly how far 100' is or precisely where to measure the 100' from.
HICALS, post: 439833, member: 6788 wrote: Based on the fact that the 6x6 Caltrans monuments I typically find (if intact) have a small pin imbedded in the approximate center, my assumption has been that said monuments were intended to mark the ROW line. Unfortunately, in some areas I work, 6x6 monuments are not included on Caltrans Monument maps and no notes are available pertaining to their setting
It may be difficult to comprehend, but there is a place where big concrete ROW monuments with a beautiful R W inscribed along the side are installed with the intention not to mark the ROW, but to be essentionaly a witness to the real marker which is a two bit rebar nearby,,,,,,,
I. Ben Havin, post: 439914, member: 6834 wrote: Not sure, but hoping it was obvious the purpose of the post was to show how ridiculous it is to state that right of way monumentation controls the width of a highway right of way. Of course, regardless how many times different people make measurements to right of way monumentation the width remains ?? in this case ?? 100'.
Thanks,
ubenhavin
But it is almost never 100.00' . I think it is much more ridiculous to think that the ROW moves every time someone measures a distance .01' different or decides to measure from something other than the monument. We have thousands of court cases telling us this is not how boundaries work.
MightyMoe, post: 439939, member: 700 wrote: It may be difficult to comprehend, but there is a place where big concrete ROW monuments with a beautiful R W inscribed along the side are installed with the intention not to mark the ROW, but to be essentionaly a witness to the real marker which is a two bit rebar nearby,,,,,,,
If the real marker is of record there should be no confusion among surveyors, but I wonder how many land owners get into trouble because of that? How far away is the rebar from the concrete witness post?
Here yesterday's finds- 2 pipes from 1939.
They purportedly monument a P.O.T. at 263+75 for a RW break at from 40' to 30' on the RT.
.
.
here is the pipe 30 ft lt of CL
..
..
This one is 30 ft rt of CL.
the position for the pipe at 40 ft rt of Cl is now occupied by a concrete set chainlink fence corner post.
they measure 60.20 ft between the pipes.
do you think they are monuments on the Right of way or merely references to the centerline?
Is the location of the 40 ft break 10' from the pipe at 30' or 40.00 ft from the centerline where ever that happens to land?
Rankin_File, post: 440097, member: 101 wrote: Here yesterday's finds- 2 pipes from 1939.
They purportedly monument a P.O.T. at 263+75 for a RW break at from 40' to 30' on the RT.
.
.
here is the pipe 30 ft lt of CL
..
..
This one is 30 ft rt of CL.
the position for the pipe at 40 ft rt of Cl is now occupied by a concrete set chainlink fence corner post.
they measure 60.20 ft between the pipes.
do you think they are monuments on the Right of way or merely references to the centerline?
Is the location of the 40 ft break 10' from the pipe at 30' or 40.00 ft from the centerline where ever that happens to land?
What is the 60.2' between? The pipes that are supposed to be 10' apart?