Removing another Surveyor's monuments

The trouble with pins you feel were improperly set is what has happened to the property since they were set. If the property has changed hands or owners have acted in good faith (bona fide) upon those monuments locations, the "erroneous" pins may very well be the boundaries of those properties.

The weight of acquiescence, occupation and possession can bend and warp lines over the years. It becomes almost irrelevant whether the corners are "as originally located" or "common with the math". So to answer your question...I would not remove another surveyor's pins; especially if the property was owned privately.

Is it 'right' to allow errors to compound and proliferate? In a perfect world, probably not. But the world we live in is far from perfect.

Your best bet is to let other surveyors know the "watch out" when working in the area.

I've had stuff like that happen. I found the old hundred year old monuments buried down about a foot or more and a newer cap about 1.5' away. The lots along the road had been stationed off from the newer pins and 3 or 4 houses had been constructed. Rather than disrupt everything in the area I was pretty much forced to agree with the newer capped pins. The were the accepted corners even though i knew them to be "wrong".

Here is the "Nate Solution". Go to youtube, and play "The Gambler".
While it is playing, read my solution.
Both. you should hold new ones some of the time, and old ones some of the time. The main thing is to DOCUMENT what you did, and maybe document WHY. If you can think of a good reason. This way, at least you are leaving behind actual followable footsteps. Doing all one, or all the other, does not take into account the WAY things are out there.

Just be sure you provide WHAT you did, and even if your logic is weak, it can RIPEN to such an extent, that nobody will mess with it.

ALL plats you do in this area should have a note on them, about it's history.

You will also be giving other surveyors "Permission" to do what you did.

Nate

I agree with not moving any monuments, even if they are incorrect. Those incorrect pins could be important pieces of the puzzle for a future surveyor trying make heads or tails of conflicting surveys. I would just be sure to document everything I found.

I understand what you are saying but it's just so hard to leave those pins out there when they are 4' away from the pins I set in 1971. We did the best we could back then. I feel like if I just document the problem and leave the pins, I'm subjecting the land owners to unnecessary conflict down the road. I think we could fix it now and be done with it by removing the bad pins.

Tom

teffinger, post: 344494, member: 2642 wrote: as far as 10' ... 4' away from the pins I set in 1971

What went wrong in 1971? Four or ten feet on town lots is surprising for 1771, much less 1971.

Another vote for "don't touch them". Even if it drives you nuts, just leave 'em. The police don't sanitize a crime scene for people that get lightheaded around blood.

Evidence is evidence is evidence. If anything, I'd argue that the extra monuments can help you describe the bounds of a survey with more certainty. Maybe you could even tie a brass tag on the offending monuments that says "don't rely on" and hope other surveyors get the message.

I'd be sure to thoroughly identify types/diameters/ect. to separate the "more right" stuff from the "obviously wrong" stuff.

I agree with Nate. The easiest thing to do (which is often the wrong thing to do) is to just leave them there, as it requires no thought, liability, or difficult decision making. I would likely pull the erroneous pins (after locating them) around undeveloped lots and leave any that may have been relied upon for lot improvements. Most of the boundary disputes I've worked on in subdivisions were over less than a five foot strip of land. While I appreciate the sanctity of monuments set by a fellow surveyor, my priority is to keep land owners out of trouble and having two monuments per lot corner does not aid in this.

Don't believe I've ever pulled a monument set by another surveyor unless it was to replace it, in the exact same location, with one that is larger, more durable or straighter. Being in a recording state it is very easy to spread the word about stray objects that someone else may assume are true monuments. Besides, I've been around long enough that I have encountered a few cases where I don't really like something I set 10/15/20/25 years ago.

It's my understanding that when a common grantor subdivides and sells land, the original survey and the monuments set during that survey define the lots. The lots were laid out in blocks with common area surrounding the blocks. Sometimes the blocks of lots got off a little so when you try to lay them out again based on the boundary, you discover increasing errors as you work through the block. The original Surveyors traversed and closed the blocks so the monuments in the blocks agree with each other. The error in some blocks is large (50'-60'). Some of the lots in the blocks have been developed so when you lay them out "correctly" based on the boundary, you cause all sorts of problems. It has been the policy of most of us to hold the original pins and allow the error to be "absorbed" in the surrounding Common Areas. When the blocks abut the boundary of the subdivision, the monuments along the boundary are treated as "closing corners" allowing them to be adjusted to the true boundary. I'm thinking that if we tied out the errant corners knowing that they were set using improper methods, then remove them, we would be preserving the evidence but not leaving the crime. Does that make sense?

Tom

Sometimes the best thing is to pull the erroneous monuments but it is advisable to use an abundance of caution. Monuments in the ground are private property; pulling them may be a crime unless the property owners agree to remove them.

If erroneous monuments are being relied upon in good faith by property owners then the Surveyor does not have the right to be Judge, Jury and Executioner by independently solving the conflict. The Surveyor can and should advise the property owners on the best course of action but the decision is theirs on what action to take.

The problem with the "Old original mons" is that they *MAY* have been meddled with, by utility co, or others, because that is beyond the standards of the time. I vote "Don't pull 'em" because they may have some legal weight. BUT, I so no problem with pounding them 4" below the surface. I'd even suggest a "Community meeting" at the local coffee house, and tell them what is going on. I'd like them that you'd like to generate a plat of the whole subdivision, and have ALL of them sign off on it.... but that may be too much... Anyway, it will always have sleeping dogs in it. Unless BOTH sides sign off, and the banks too...

N

teffinger, post: 344494, member: 2642 wrote: I understand what you are saying but it's just so hard to leave those pins out there when they are 4' away from the pins I set in 1971. We did the best we could back then. I feel like if I just document the problem and leave the pins, I'm subjecting the land owners to unnecessary conflict down the road. I think we could fix it now and be done with it by removing the bad pins.

Tom

Like I said....I wouldn't move them...

now if my crew actually did it and never said a word to me about it.....that would be something altogether different...;-)

50-60 feet!?!?! Sounds like you've got a real mess in this area you're describing. Not sure who would ever pay for it, but it sounds like it all needs to be resurveyed and fixed. That's just going to be non-stop problems forever otherwise.....

Yes, we have a real mess and the introduction of the erroneous pins hasn't helped. Just the condition of the original survey is enough of a challenge. To reset a missing pin is a project. You have to find original pins and make measurements to try to put them back where the original Surveyor put them. That's probably why the errant ones appeared, it was much easier to put them in based on math alone.

Tom

Another vote for "don't pull the monuments" here. The reasons have all been cited already.

The problem likely will never be "fixed" because there will always be someone that is saying something contrary to whatever is going on out there. Land owners want to maximize their actual holdings (or at least prevent them from being minimized). And surveyors often will insist that their solution is the "right one" for the situation.

I think that one thing to do would be to send a letter to all of the land holders in the area explaining that recent surveys have discovered that there have been errors discovered in the survey monuments in the area and that it may have an effect on their property. You can advise them to consult with a surveyor or to discuss the issue with their neighbors. Maybe some of the owners will "band together" and hire a surveyor to investigate and at that point, some of the issues can be addressed. Ultimately, it is the land owners' issue, even though it will cause headaches for many other people (mostly surveyors) for a long time to come.

Does the County Surveyor have the authority to go into a private subdivision and "fix" things?

As I understand it, the County Surveyor has a duty to resolve boundary disputes not create them. As County Surveyor, you may want to review the state statutes 18-4-507 through 18-4-509. I think removal of survey monumentation is legally frowned upon.

I don't know how a County Surveyor would have the authority to resolve private property boundaries. Perhaps Teffinger can enlighten us... Its strictly forbidden here!