JPH, post: 393810, member: 6636 wrote: I did a survey once for a woman who was intending to buy a property. She paid in full and I delivered the plan to her, but she didn't end up buying the land.
A month later the realtor called me asking for a copy of the plan, (which wasn't recorded), to show another potential buyer. I explained that I did the work for my client, the woman who didn't buy it, and that it was up to her whether copies could be provided. She said that the woman was upset that the deal fell through, and they weren't on speaking terms. But she still expected me to provide her with a copy of the plan, since the land belonged to her clients.
That's nuts. You might suggest to her that the seller could have a survey done in the future, and they could provide a copy to any potential buyers. It's quite an expense for a person to pay for a survey on a property that they may or may not end up owing, and it would be an awesome thing for the seller to go through the trouble.
Many years ago I did one for a buyer who backed out of the deal because of what the survey showed. She was wise to do so. The sellers most definitely didn't want anyone to know about my survey. But, by the time they found out what I had discovered most of the town knew all about it.
JPH, post: 393810, member: 6636 wrote: I did a survey once for a woman who was intending to buy a property. She paid in full and I delivered the plan to her, but she didn't end up buying the land.
A month later the realtor called me asking for a copy of the plan, (which wasn't recorded), to show another potential buyer. I explained that I did the work for my client, the woman who didn't buy it, and that it was up to her whether copies could be provided. She said that the woman was upset that the deal fell through, and they weren't on speaking terms. But she still expected me to provide her with a copy of the plan, since the land belonged to her clients.
Mam did you not study the doctrine of Estoppel in your Real Estate Class?
NOPE Don't do it.. I tell people the truth.. The SURVEY is the field work I did Don't confuse the paper map with the SURVEY. I just recently refused to give a copy out to the guy I did a survey for 8 years ago. I reminded him that he got official paper copies when his project was completed. It's not my fault if he doesn't keep his records handy. Turns out he was selling his house and wanted to give it to the buyer. And he had built an addition and changed the driveway .. Which in my neighborhood could be a huge issue.
I'm very cordial and explain it to whoever calls. There is no such thing as a free lunch. I learned that as a kid, and so did they. Now if they insist on calling for every home they list.... I get a little more indignant. Just my .02.
ANdy
Don't get many of these calls a surveys in Utah must be filed with the County Surveyor. So when I do get a call I just tell them to get from there.
As I go along I'm getting concerned about all the free stuff surveyors in Utah are required to do for the public. Getting sick of having to file records by law for the public that the public won't pay for. I'd feel better about it if my county would support the PLSS and have a licensed county surveyor on staff. But they don't and they won't. Why would they when the law requires private surveyors to do much of it for free. Sucks big time!!
It should be a two way street, private surveyor helps public and public supports surveyors. In my and many other counties in Utah there in NO public support of the surveying community. They like the free stuff though.
I have maybe had this question asked of me a handful of times over the past 15 years. This is one of the benefites of working in recording states without mortgage surveys or the requrement for any type of survey on land transactions. I either point the caller to the county website or to the courthouse where the public records are kept. If it's a private document that i was not required to record by law, they are not getting a copy.
New property creations have to be filed in Ohio but not re-tracement surveys. I still get calls from new agents all the time requesting surveys that we've recorded or filed at the tax map offices. They get upset when I tell them they're right down the street or they can get them from the on line gis sites. I don't worry about it because they don't last too long and I won't have worked with them anyways.
Why? Why would a professional give away his/her work product? Especially, one that is extremely time sensitive? And, could potentially cause harm.
Being in the business, and not having fallen off some turnip truck, I/you/we should have some notion that the person asking is going to be doing something with that copy he/she hopes you will provide.
As the professional who knows full well (or at least should have some degree of suspicion) how that out of date copy might be used, and also knows full well improvements (even monumentation) are sometimes altered or added, an extra responsibility rests on your shoulders to put the brakes on this accident-waiting-to-happen. You can not expect the public to even be thinking of the possible harm that could befall them (i.e. how can a layperson realize that a monument has been moved, or even how can we be certain a layperson would even know to think or question that a monument has been disturbed?).
This should be when you advise them of the potential dangers of using an old map, and to let them know you will definitely not be a party to it. Also, if it makes you feel any less guilty for not fulfilling a request, just say you do not keep old copies. If the requester drives the guilt angle any deeper, and talks/inquires about the electronic drawing file just explain that to the "Board" that would be the same as "producing" a new map, and that in order to "produce" a new map you would have to visit the property to ensure not one single thing has changed. (Thankfully, after 40+ years the guilt angle no longer works on me. The word "no" is enough.)
In addition, as surveyors we should be in the business of advocating for a land survey whenever property is purchased. After all, it is for the new land owner's protection.
I take the position that a map of survey is nothing but a snap shot of property on a date certain. Once that date passes, with each and every day the accuracy of conditions may well begin to change too. But, how would we know?
If we are going to give away old copies of our surveys how are we protecting the public?
(ps Florida is a non recording state.)
I see it is quite frustrating to live in a non-recording state...
Jim in AZ, post: 393909, member: 249 wrote: I see it is quite frustrating to live in a non-recording state...
In recording states, do you record maps showing all of the easements and improvements on the property as well as its boundaries or ... just the tract boundaries and the evidence from which they were determined?
My guess is that what Mr. or Ms. Realtor wants isn't a map just showing the boundaries of the tract that shows none of the buildings and other improvements upon it.
In my opinion, you should be able to reduce any service or profession to a one sentence description.
Doctors : "We make sick people feel better."
Dentists : "We fix problems with people's teeth."
Surveyors : "We tell people things about their land that they did not know."
Realtors : "We collect money for trying to get surveyors to tell people things for free so that there will be more money for commissions at closing."
Kent McMillan, post: 393910, member: 3 wrote: In recording states, do you record maps showing all of the easements and improvements on the property as well as its boundaries or ... just the tract boundaries and the evidence from which they were determined?
My guess is that what Mr. or Ms. Realtor wants isn't a map just showing the boundaries of the tract that shows none of the buildings and other improvements upon it.
Kent,
It depends. If its just a boundary survey and one of the reference documents contains easement info I will show those easements (and any others I might be aware of) on my map, along with a note that no title report was furnished so all easement may not be shown. Occasionally I will show buildings, but usually only if i think there is a setback issue or the building wall is the property line. If its an ALTA survey I record the whole thing. I used to modify them and produce Record of Survey maps, but I decided there was no sense in that.
Jim in AZ, post: 393915, member: 249 wrote: If its an ALTA survey I record the whole thing. I used to modify them and produce Record of Survey maps, but I decided there was no sense in that.
It may not yet be the case in Arizona, but eventually land title insurers are probably going to be willing to treat those old ALTA surveys of record as good enough for all subsequent transactions (with some sort of affidavit from the owner). Won't that be fun for all involved?
I give copies to realtors all the time - with NOT FOR TITLE PURPOSES across the whole drawing. I don't see where it exposes me to extra liability and it's certainly good marketing for the tiny market I work in.
Kent McMillan, post: 393917, member: 3 wrote: It may not yet be the case in Arizona, but eventually land title insurers are probably going to be willing to treat those old ALTA surveys of record as good enough for all subsequent transactions (with some sort of affidavit from the owner). Won't that be fun for all involved?
I have no doubt that they will - they are doing it now. If the owner wants to take that risk its not my concern - he can have it!
Jim in AZ, post: 393926, member: 249 wrote: I have no doubt that they will - they are doing it now. If the owner wants to take that risk its not my concern - he can have it!
I think that the real lesson is that it is worth the trouble to print survey maps for record without the improvements on them, just the boundaries. Shouldn't be a problem, right?
In Arkansas, all the realtors have to do is go on-line and look it up. I've always had a problem with that. I propose that only licensed surveyors be able to access those records. I give multiple copies to the persons that pay me and then file them with the state. What are my liabilities to people that I didn't contract with? There are firms here that don't file and will NOT give out any info even to a fellow surveyor. If another surveyor calls me, I not only give them the drawing, I'll send them a coordinate file. If we disagree, at least we can talk about it.
Jim in AZ, post: 393909, member: 249 wrote: I see it is quite frustrating to live in a non-recording state...
As someone who is licenced in both recording states and a non recording state I whole heartedly agree.
Kent McMillan, post: 393929, member: 3 wrote: I think that the real lesson is that it is worth the trouble to print survey maps for record without the improvements on them, just the boundaries. Shouldn't be a problem, right?
Lesson?
Webbed feet, post: 393945, member: 10038 wrote: In Arkansas, all the realtors have to do is go on-line and look it up. I've always had a problem with that. I propose that only licensed surveyors be able to access those records. I give multiple copies to the persons that pay me and then file them with the state. What are my liabilities to people that I didn't contract with? There are firms here that don't file and will NOT give out any info even to a fellow surveyor. If another surveyor calls me, I not only give them the drawing, I'll send them a coordinate file. If we disagree, at least we can talk about it.
"What are my liabilities to people that I didn't contract with?"
Perhaps the Board that licenses you to practice can answer this...
