I don't do much work in Pinellas County, Florida, but they have a lot information online, so using their GIS/Prop. Appr./Clerk's websites to look up some deeds for a starting point is easy. Then, I clicked on a parcel, got the OR book and page of the last deed, but when I go to the Clerk's site, and try to access the deed, I get this message:
"Information regarding your request
Message:
Pursuant to Florida Statute 28.2221(5)(a) this image is not available to view on a publicly available internet website for general public display.
This document is available for viewing in the Clerk's office. If you have questions, please contact Recording Services."
All the other scans loaded fine, except this one.
Ok, so I went to their office, in person, and used their available computer to look it up, and got the same message. So I asked the lady that works there, and she told me she can access it on her computer, but it's illegal to show it to me. Another worker backed her up. WTF? Are these not public records? She did tell me that the doc did not contain a legal description, but I'd like to have seen it for myself to know why it's associated with the property in the GIS.
This county, BTW, is entirely computerized for the few decades and does not have any hard copies or microfilm available from the modern era. I eventually was able (lucky enough) to figure out the grantee (I found a computer for tax records) and was able to find the old deeds I needed, but really, how can the Clerk deny a person access to public records?
Here's the law, by the way.
(5)(a)?No county recorder or clerk of the court may place an image or copy of a public record, including an official record, on a publicly available Internet website for general public display if that image or copy is of a military discharge; death certificate; or a court file, record, or paper relating to matters or cases governed by the Florida Rules of Family Law, the Florida Rules of Juvenile Procedure, or the Florida Probate Rules.
The way I read it, it says they can't put it on the internet. It doesn't say they can't print it and show it to me....
She did say it was a will probate doc.
It must contain some sort of PII (personal information). My wife works on the Navy Base in Millington, and she has to have a high level security clearance for her work. She has access to customer (military personnel) information. regarding service records.
She said they have the information locked down pretty tight. It must be something to do with that type of information.
I don't know about this particular
incident, but in Georgia the Clerks have had to go back and redact certain documents because they had personal information on them (Social Security numbers).
Andy
Sounds like a bit of a power struggle situation? Everywhere I've ever worked I made certain to be very friendly with the local county/municipality surveyor staff. Not sure if FL has county surveyors, but somebody is in charge somewhere. They know the other county staff well and no doubt will cooperate with a fellow out of town surveyor who asks lots of questions.
I'd start with your peers and politely go over the clerks office respective heads. Even if it's a bigger firm in town, no doubt they'd help too. May be competition, but at the end of the day we're all on the same team.
Good luck
I ran across something like this here in Pima County a few years ago.
The only way we could have gotten a copy of a deed was for the actual owner to get a copy from the Recorder and then give it to us.
From what I could gather, this was a law enforcement concern - perhaps a witness protection or a victim protection situation.
We never did get a copy...
Probates
I can understand the privacy act. In Oklahoma we have similar constraints on public viewing certain documents.
What I can't understand is how a probate could be withheld from viewing or copying. A probate is a proclamation, to the public, that an estate has been settled lawfully.
In Oklahoma probates are a specific piece of title research. I would go so far as to say probates and divorces are the largest driving forces for quiet title suits.
...things that make you go "hmmmm..."
Your interpretation of the law is correct. Many states now have laws about posting public documents that contain private identifying info on line to prevent on line data mining and to make it more difficult for people who want your address to plan some sort of criminal activity against you or your property.
The document is still public record though and I'll bet that there is a provision in FL statutes pertaining to the County Clerk's public records files that states that any public record must be produced on demand.
Next time, ask to speak to the County Clerk rather than allowing the counter person to shut you down. If that doesn't work, submit a request for the documents you need pursuant to FL's version of the Freedom Of Information Act.
Deeds in our county
are not available online and probably never will be. They are digitizing them but with too much personal info on them, they can't publish.
Steve,
Pima County has some different rules at the Recorders office for sure. You can research documents and find them, but you need to pay to see them, even if you don't want to print them. Trips to their recorders office are often part of our research.
On the opposite side - Cochise County has one of the very best systems I have seen in Arizona - very surveyor-friendly, with survey information, GPS-located positions, pictures - very nice.
It's a sad situation, Joe. Pima County used to have one of the best GIS systems with free access to ROS's, M&P's and such. The Recorder has done everything possible to put us on a par with Santa Cruz County (one of the worst systems in AZ). The Pima County Recorder is destroying the original records. I asked what happens in the event of a solar flare. She obviously has no clue.
I agree about Cochise County. Walter, Claire, Dave S. and Christine have did an exceptional job. And they are still improving the system.
Maricopa County is not too bad. A bit clunky, buy it is easy to find and it costs nada to have a look-see.
Right.
My point was that now and again, "public documents" can be made unavailable, presumably by court order.
> Maricopa County is not too bad. A bit clunky, buy it is easy to find and it costs nada to have a look-see.
I'll put a plug in for Mohave County here, with the same comments. It's all there but you need to know where you're going. The staff is extremely helpful, if you know who to talk to. Yavapai is similar in the same regards. Tried messing with the Coconino County site before, but end up just telling them to call James Crowley at SWI. Fuggitabout La Paz County, plan on a trip to Parker for a time travel trip back to the '80s.
If you have the book and page, you could always ask your friendly agent at whatever title company you are familiar with to pull it. Somehow, it seems as though lawyers and title companies can get any of the public records they want. We had to do that in Brevard county to get a couple "deeds" from around Cape Kennedy....
Nice to see your post J.O. - it's been a while 🙂 I remember doing research about 8-10 years ago for a project in Tucson, and the link thru TDOT using Mapguide was pretty helpful. Had a nice conversation with John yesterday, he helped me into the site again using IE (arrgh), as it's the only browser Mapguide works with. Found a few maps I was looking for near DMAFB.
Cochise County has really stepped up - Jodi McGrath was a big help for me getting their KMZ file working in GE - very nice resource.
