Question: When you locate an original monument, be it a stone or post or whatever was originally set as a Section Corner, do you locate said monument and move on? Or replace it with a capped iron pin or other type of modern monument? I have seen both methods done. Personally, I locate the original monument and leave it in place. It has been a while since I studied this topic, and I am looking for other opinions.
As ALWAYS...it depends.
Rotted Wood Posts (or the remains thereof), ALWAYS get a new Pipe/Cap.
Well marked/set Posts, may or may not get re-monumented, it depends...
Weathered Stones (hard to read), or busted up, USUALLY get a new Pipe/Cap
Well marked/set Stones, may or may not get re-monumented, it depends...
Depending on what you are doing (and who you are working for), sometimes the choice is not up to you.
My 'rule of thumb' is simple...IF the Stone looks good after 100+ years, it will probably look good long after my dirt nap starts.
Loyal
When I find a stone and it is in a place where it could get farmed out, I lower it (set temporary ties to place back in the correct location), set a 5/8" x 24" Rebar and cap over it. Then I take some reference ties to it and record them on my survey plat or record. Then I file it with the State or County as required.
If it is in a pasture and no harm will come to it, I take reference ties to fences, fence post with a nail and fender washer, trees with a "X nails" or nail and stamped disc, nail and fender washer. Or I will set old water pipe as ties with out a cap to avoid use as the corner monument.
You can also place a magnet or some iron by the stone, on one side or the other and note it on your survey record. Remember you may have to use it again if you can find it.
The ties should be set in a lasting location also.
Make sure you file just the monument records in a public place if you don't get your money from a dead beat land owner.
You should get the ideal from this. I will stop here.
Dennis Mouland has written a nice article on this very subject in the new edition of American Surveyor. It is worth the time to read it.
Included in the article is a very good statement: "When it comes to boundary law and procedures, anyone having a set of black and white rules is a foolish and dangerous surveyor."
I couldn't agree more.
Brian Allen, post: 362644, member: 1333 wrote: Dennis Mouland has written a nice article on this very subject in the new edition of American Surveyor. It is worth the time to read it.
Included in the article is a very good statement: "When it comes to boundary law and procedures, anyone having a set of black and white rules is a foolish and dangerous surveyor."
I couldn't agree more.
I dunno- I once heard him say "Never monument an unwritten right." [sarcasm]That sounds pretty black and white to me....[/sarcasm]:whistle:
Rankin_File, post: 362649, member: 101 wrote: I dunno- I once heard him say "Never monument an unwritten right." [sarcasm]That sounds pretty black and white to me....[/sarcasm]:whistle:
LOL!!
Hmmmm - I've found and monumented quite a few boundaries based on what some would call "unwritten rights". But..........
[sarcasm]In my best Bill Clinton voice: "I guess that depends on your definition of "unwritten right"[/sarcasm]
Great question for discussion. My thoughts run along the line of leaving it alone if it is still sound. I found it. The next surveyor should be able to do the same. Especially when I file my corner records for the whole world to find that documents what I found, how I found it and how I made it easier for future surveyors to find. As an example, with a stone, I will normally set one or more iron bars adjacent to it but several inches deeper than the top of the stone so that the stone will be found while searching for the cause of the iron signal. The stone is the monument. My bar is just an aid to help you find it. My corner records will tell you what you need to know. You simply need to be thorough enough in your investigations to research the corner records and not simply run around with a metal detector grabbing the first iron signal you find.
Whatever you do, document it! Not sure about other states, but Michigan has and corner record form that In would document what was found and set that gets recorded with register of deeds office.
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I kinda figger I don't have to put a pin there...look around...I'll bet good money there's already one there.
In the event a pin can't be found, I don't muddy the water with placing one.
To Brian Allen
Surveyors do not determine the rights that others have in land. We find evidence to prove our work is correct. A judge or the jury will make any of the rights a fact. Or an agreement of the owners or city, county or state regulations.
Art S, post: 362699, member: 8983 wrote: To Brian Allen
Surveyors do not determine the rights that others have in land. We find evidence to prove our work is correct. A judge or the jury will make any of the rights a fact. Or an agreement of the owners or city, county or state regulations.
True...BUT Surveyors DO determine the BOUNDARIES of those rights.
B-)
Loyal
Art S, post: 362699, member: 8983 wrote: To Brian Allen
Surveyors do not determine the rights that others have in land. We find evidence to prove our work is correct. A judge or the jury will make any of the rights a fact. Or an agreement of the owners or city, county or state regulations.
I'm not sure what you are trying to say or respond to, but I have never said we should "determine the rights that others have in land". I assumed my sentence in my previous post was quite clear. If it wasn't, I'm surely sorry. :-/
Yes. Only in the land on their deed, not unwritten rights.
Art S, post: 362699, member: 8983 wrote: To Brian Allen
Surveyors do not determine the rights that others have in land. We find evidence to prove our work is correct. A judge or the jury will make any of the rights a fact. Or an agreement of the owners or city, county or state regulations.
(Rankin puts on Popcorn- pulls up chair....)
Art S, post: 362703, member: 8983 wrote: Yes. Only in the land on their deed, not unwritten rights.
Ok, define "unwritten rights".
Examples would be helpful.
Adverse Possession, Easements, Reversion, the bed or high water of a river or stream.
We just describe or create or retrace boundary's.
Brown's Boundary Control and Legal Principles 7th Addition page 1-3 and 226.
We don't see a fence about 50 years old and extend or shorten boundary lines.
We should make a record of where the property line is and possession line is.
I am sorry everyone. I read a job description once that was composed by the head surveyor of a large organization, and he had in it "determine the rights of land the land owners.
Art S, post: 362709, member: 8983 wrote: Adverse Possession, Easements, Reversion, the bed or high water of a river or stream.
We just describe or create or retrace boundary's.
Brown's Boundary Control and Legal Principles 7th Addition page 1-3 and 226.
We don't see a fence about 50 years old and extend or shorten boundary lines.
We should make a record of where the property line is and possession line is.
No, we don't "create" boundaries. That "right" is held by the landowners. Yes, we can help them do it, but no, we can't do it for them.
As for adverse possession, I believe we shouldn't express opinions as to whether or not it has been perfected. I still have yet to run across any AP situation that has had to go to court to settle it.
Do you really never locate boundaries of easements, reversions, or riparian boundaries???
As to 50 year old fences (or fences of any age) that aren't called for specifically in the description, they can be evidence of the original boundary line as run and marked on the ground, evidence of an agreed/acquiesced boundary, or just a fence used for any purpose. The key to understanding fences and boundaries is gathering the appropriate evidence and properly applying boundary law (this is "retracement").
Yes, we should perpetuate evidence. No, I don't believe in just "slapping the math on the ground and letting the chips fall where they may", I try and find the correct answer and/or help the landowners find a solution to the problem.
Art S, post: 362709, member: 8983 wrote: Adverse Possession, Easements, Reversion, the bed or high water of a river or stream.
We just describe or create or retrace boundary's.
Brown's Boundary Control and Legal Principles 7th Addition page 1-3 and 226.
We don't see a fence about 50 years old and extend or shorten boundary lines.
We should make a record of where the property line is and possession line is.
Put down the 7th edition and read the actual law; it is readily available.
I get to look for three tomorrow, I will leave them in place unless they have issues, then they get a new shiny cap where I find the dimple B-)and I bury the stone alongside.
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