What happens when the signed plans arrive with differences? Who is financially responsible?
it is the clients (or his architect, stability engineer,...) responsibility that the plans that are transferred are correct. we often find errors and let everybody know at the time of the staking.
Paper plans are rarely used anymore over here. everything pdf or dwg. I always ask and work with dwg. I never do any stakeout with solely pdf.
I don't do a lot of construction layout, but when I do I use a detailed line item proposal. Part of that proposal states that I receive updated plans 2 days prior to staking. If the calculations for a particular layout have been done prior to the changes, the contractor pays for a re-calc.
I can not understand how any surveyor can propose on layout without a detailed scope. You are just setting yourself up.
construction staking is mostly with half day tarifs. Calculation before and plans what has been staked are on an hourly rate.
Sometimes calls come in to stake something tomorrow so no time for all the paperwork. The e-mails are the proof and command for that job then.
We don't fiddle about with contracts a lot, only for major jobs. Residential suveying etc is all done without contracts, reply-ing to emails is enough. Never had any problems.
It depends on the client and the situation. I have a regular cadre I work with. Mostly multi-family building projects. For every new project:
- the contractor sends me "NOT FOR CONSTRUCTION " pdfs. These are generally vectorized pdf, so I can actually snap to the linework in them.
- I request CAD and the signed and approved plans
- They say "Oh, do you need them?"
- Yes, I do.
- OK, we will get that for you but in the meantime we need XYZ laid out to start
- I will, but if the approved set turns out to have any changes, it's on you (paraphrased, in an email)
- Acknowledged (paraphrased, in an email, which?ÿ I save)
- Initial layout done based on NOT FOR CONSTRUCTION plans.
- If the contractor hasn't come through with the CAD and APPROVED plans in a few days (about half the time)?ÿ I call the engineer and architect and get the CAD and approved plans I need.?ÿ The?ÿ APPROVED set is scanned, useless for snapping to in CAD. I'll print this one out, but I'm still going to use the vectorized NOT FOR CONSTRUCTION set for calcs, if the CAD isn't sufficient.
Every time I arrive on site I inspect the superintendents set of plans to see that we are working from the same revisions.?ÿ?ÿ
For clients I don't know so well this same sort of dance may go on as well but the documentation of the conversations has to be more thorough. If I'm not comfortable I'll throw up the stop sign.
There are cases where the plans provided are clearly early and provisional. In those cases I'm likely to dig in my heels.?ÿ
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If the PM is an upfront player he'll realize survey costs are chump change compared to the havoc of bad surveying; so he'll include you in his inner circle.?ÿ You can be proactive and point out obvious plan defects (storm drain pipes that go uphill is my favorite, cut slope grades that are way above max allowed by just laying a scale on the plans is second) and generally keep him in tune with the quality of his engineering plans.?ÿ
Best contractor I ever worked with sent me a set of the structural engineers pier & anchor bolt plan six months before the anticipated stakeout on a water tank for me to review and make sure they were sufficient to stake from while there was time in the schedule to get any RFIs answered..?ÿ?ÿ
I do similarly as Norman - some sort of written confirmation that the contractor is accepting liability.
Recently got burned on verbal confirmation. The email trail was back and forth with the design engineer with the confirming contractor rep only cc'd. Got verbal confirmation via phone conversation.
Contractor rep moved on to a new job with a different company. Later a discrepancy was found and the contractor claims they never approved...
I would in a heartbeat, as long as the contractor's representative would sign the PO acknowledging the plan set date, revision number, and that they bore the note "not for construction".?ÿ It's all about the paper trail...
disclaimers and the like verbiage are all well and good, but at some point stuff has to get built 🙂
Not ever. I am not even sure passing the responsibility off on another party would pass the insurance test....if it came down to it.
Thank you all for your take. I have had the "No Way" attitude about it in the past, but it just seems like I rarely am receiving a Final set anymore. I was just curious if everyone was having the same experiences... Sounds like a lot of us are.
In my experience, the 9 steps you described there usually take longer than the calcs, and have a real potential to blow the budget. Do you just bill the hours as an extra?
When things heat up, it is normal to build off of "Preliminary" plans and such. As long as everyone is on the same page, it works.
Trust is the number one difference between a happy, profitable relationship and a whole project being a crap-hole. Think is, the bean counters don't care about trust. You have to know your clients.
I have staked out all kinds of things I shouldn't have. If I didn't I wouldn't stake much. "Not for construction" plans, napkin sketches, obvious setback violations, obvious property line discrepancies. These are mostly houses, some 8 figure $$, a few highways. Things are pretty loose here. I will often send an email to the builder, concrete sub, architect, owner sometimes, describing the situation and advising not to use the stakes for construction. Of course they do so anyway. ?ÿ?ÿ
Those 9 steps are a phone call, an exchange of emails, and personal communications on site. I just roll the time into "Staking Prep". I bill all these jobs hourly, and I stake whatever the site super asks for, when he asks for it.
I really can't see doing construction staking on a fixed fee basis. These buildings typically have a ~$10million overall cost, with surveying coming in around $25k. Chump change. The PMs are satisfied that anything they pay me is saved on the other end in saved crew labor costs, and any running down of plans I do is work they don't have to.?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
I've done a lot of mid five to six figure construction staking projects for a fixed fee (just the way the market is here); and as long as you develop detailed line item scopes for both for exactly what's staked and the number of mobilizations (and stick to them) you can be profitable. I generally jack up the hourly rates 10% for restakes & extras so they're the icing on the cake. My first two items in every fixed fee stakeout proposal are:
- Project set-up and Review of Plans Electronic Drawings
Project set-up and review of provided signed final design plans and electronic drawings in preparation for stakeout services. Client should provide drawings at a minimum of two weeks prior to any stakeout order to allow for review and establishment of horizontal and vertical control as addressed under item #2.
- Survey Control
Recover/establish primary control network to perform stakeout. If control needs to be established it will be tied into the same datum as the approved site plans. If no control can be found, options for establishing new control will be discussed with the client on an hourly basis. Provide two (2) site benchmarks as directed by client.
Depending on the complexity of the projects, both of these can easily push into the $2K -$5K range. (I also try and recoup the billable time put into the proposal in here)
Sure thing. Setup, precalcs, survey control, boundary confirmation are all part of the deal and I'm often well into the $5k range before I drive my first stake.
A pet peeve of mine is the lame job of monumenting control that is typically done by the pre-design topo surveyor. If I can get any information on that at all.
No unless the Person your working for wants to sign and date them giving you some form of approval. Do not take his word for it or a handshake. If you stake them with no approvals you are responsible for what you stake. Youll be surprised how fast things move when you ask a client to sign off on something like that!
