I visited a dam reconstruction site today on the mountain. I've done some work on the project going back to 1993. I did the engineering design survey topo and stuff last year for the engineer.
I put in proposals for the construction survey work but didn't get the work. The contractor that got the job is totally into machine control. They've got it on a dozer, a blade and an excavator. There are practically no stakes for grading slopes, and excavations. It's all modeled and done by the operators in the machines.
They've had rain and are behind schedule and were working today. I know the engineer and had a nice visit with him and the general superintendent. They are perfectly good with the GPS machine control accuracy. Today they were excavating for a toe drain trench which has a design grade and alignment. No stakes, the excavator operator was in control with his on board machine control. The future is here folks, if you want to be involved in earthwork construction better learn how to make machine control models, the days of staking are mostly gone.
I wonder how long before the machine operators will be eliminated also.
Also, this is a very reputable dirt contractor and they outbid all bidders by $300,000 on a two million dollar job. I suspect their ability and use of machine control had a lot to do with it.
> Also, this is a very reputable dirt contractor and they outbid all bidders by $300,000 on a two million dollar job.
Ouch! That's a lot of money to leave on the table. It sounds like their estimators have gotten a little ahead of their business managers.
Who modeled the site for them? Who set up the control onsite for the machines? Who is doing the QA/QC?
In my opinion all of that could be and should be work done by a surveyor.
At least in this area contractors usually hire a surveyor to do that work. The want someone's else's E&O insurance to be on the line if nothing else.
The contract required a qualified licensed surveyor. I didn't ask but I'd assume they have one on staff. This job is on the small side for this contractor. The final as-built must be done by a licensed surveyor. They do their machine control models in house.
The first job I was on that had machine control was about 2003 or 2004. It was 2 miles of grade, drain and surface for the BIA. The contractor was a good client and we had fooled around with his new 'toys' and got the learning curve in a managable spot.
Of course my price did not include standard offset stakes, just HV control. The model had been built by a third party and we were more concerned with the model than building the road at first.
Weeellll...the BIA had a staff of about six inspectors that were howling like they had jiggly parts caught in a wringer. They didn't have any offset stakes to check the grade! (Of course my suggestion was to tell them to get a level out and check it themselves..:clap: )
After several meetings and a couple of demonstrations about half of them understood what was going on. The other half thought it was voodoo..
I realized then that dragging a chain on 'fittys and hunnerds' was truly a thing of the past.
For those on the East Coast (near Atlanta, GA) a two day seminar- Nov.6 & 7.
I don't know a single surveyor that likes setting grade stakes over and over, I could be wrong. However, I do know a lot of surveyors that like to sit in their air conditioned office and send their crew out to set stakes over and over.
We still station the road so the inspector will know where he is for taking density.
James
Down here at the tip of Africa, machine control is very rare, I have only seen it on a few big road jobs, but there is talk of it coming, but it seems that the capital cost and low labour costs here may be hindering its wider use amongst civil contractors.
But my concern is more in the building or structure stake out market, do you see any big changes coming in that field as far as replacing surveyors with technology ?
I am talking doing layout for column bases, walls, farms building pads etc, smallish sites that don't use big earth moving machines.
Is the machine control option viable on any size civil's job ? even a small 100-200m residential road with a few plots hanging off it that need underground utilities.
Thanks
Here's one I did the model for, covers about 60 acres, haven't set a stake on it. 2 sediment basins for pumping dredged material into. Photo was taken before it was finished, but the slopes berms, and dikes look perfect from the ground.
47°27'33.66"N, 122° 3'11.78"W
I worked on a job here, a few years ago. They moved 750,000 cubic yards at this landfill, all with machine control. Looks like GE caught it somewhere in the middle of construction. I did the topo after and the contours laid right on top of design.
ol' Ridge is right; it's coming and you better get on board.....
> Looks like GE caught it somewhere in the middle of construction...
Oops, spoke to soon, a second look shows them dumping garbage....
Still, 750 thousand cubuc yards is a lot of dirt to move; stakelessB-)
Machine control is by far the best way to do massive grading...using grade stakes is way to tedious. However around here, sometimes there are just to many trees machine control for a 50' wide road. So we still set them.
> "I wonder how long before the machine operators will be eliminated also."
Most contractors in Australia these days use MC ( machine control .
You find either that the site supervisor used to be a surveyor, or that the company only employs 1 surveyor to maintain their 'fleet'.
I am currently working at a mine site which is switching to MC on haul trucks, drill rigs and trains. In future these will all be 'driven' by a control center in the nearest Capital City. So for example 1 person might be able to drive 5 trains instead of employing 5 train drivers.
Scary times ahead when you find yourself slowly spending more time in the office managing machine files than actual feild work
No stakes no surveyors!
The part I can’t figure out is the fact that licensed surveyors used to be employed on a project as an independent quality control to be sure the job was done per plan. Now the contractors have their own “surveyors” that are not licensed and are employees of the contractor and are essentially in charge of grade and consequently, material quantities. I haven’t seen an inspector get out a surveying instrument and check grade on a project for 25 years. Most inspectors I run into are fresh engineers in training and have no idea if the project is on grade. I see contractors making big money from this technology. How hard is it to build the project a couple tenths low or high to help with quans.
No stakes no surveyors!
The project I'm talking about has in the specs that a licensed surveyor is used to to do the work and had to be qualified and accepted by the owner and engineer. I think that the contractor probably has one on staff. The final as-built survey must be certified by the surveyor. Whether being the contractor's employee is a problem or not I don't know, how many PLS's will certify something fraudulently for their employer? I don't know I hope not to many. The contract also allows the engineer to have the work independently checked by another surveyor. So maybe I will get that call, probably at most a days work checking a few things for location and grade.
The contractor is responsible that the work be done correctly and be in the right place and on grade. How they do that is their business and they'll pay for the errors. I don't have a problem with that!
No stakes no surveyors!
The contractor is responsible that the work be done correctly and be in the right place and on grade. How they do that is their business and they'll pay for the errors. I don't have a problem with that!
This is what most people forget when discussing machine control and who takes responsibility for grades.
No stakes no surveyors!
I am not responding to your project specifically and if the contractor employs a licensed surveyor than I think that is acceptable. A licensed surveyor is bound by his license to be neutral and like other professionals has an excepted honesty that is assumed as a professional.
I am talking about projects that I see going on where the only surveyor is a grade hop or like that has learned how to layout and calculate but is not a surveyor. I spent years in the ditch laying pipe and years on the grade laying out the plan, I worked as a survey whore for many contractors and was asked by several, time and time again to treat them “nice” by adjusting the grade. Most gave some excuse like it’s easier for us if it’s a little high or a little low and some just came right out and said hold low or high and everyone knew why.
I have never seen an inspector that could tell whether the project was on grade by looking.
As a tax payer funding public construction, why should my taxes go to a cheating contractor because there grade hop can calculate surfaces so now they don't need a licensed surveyor for anything but control?