17.238.030
B. Site Plans. A site plan may utilize as a base an as-built survey, prepared by a licensed surveyor, provided that it is not more than ten years old and the owner certifies in writing that it accurately depicts current conditions.
Is this normal procedure? I questioned the community development about this and they said any copyright or civil issues associated with this are between the surveyor and the owner so they have no problem with it.
You prepared the as-built for your client. He paid you for it. It is his property. He may use his property as he sees fit. Normally, you may not release copies of the drawing to anyone else without the permission of the property owner that paid you for the survey.
As-builts are commonly used as the base map for any future work on that site. In my area that is the norm.
Just not sure if I like the 10 year stipulation, but I can see it being done. If the property owner certifies that it is still accurate, the surveyor has no liability.
> 17.238.030
> B. Site Plans. A site plan may utilize as a base an as-built survey, prepared by a licensed surveyor, provided that it is not more than ten years old and the owner certifies in writing that it accurately depicts current conditions.
>
> Is this normal procedure? I questioned the community development about this and they said any copyright or civil issues associated with this are between the surveyor and the owner so they have no problem with it.
I think the Florida Board took a stance against this sort of thing. Down there the Title Insurance Companies had home owners sign a waiver that nothing had changed with their survey. Then the company would use old maps safe in the knowledge that if there were any problems they would deny coverage and throw the liability back in the lap of the landowner who signed the waiver.
The FL Board ruled that signing such a waiver constituted a professional opinion and as such could only be done by those with the appropriate license.
What you describe sounds pretty similar to me. Is the owner qualified to know whether an old survey accurately depicts current conditions? My opinion, no.
Larry P
> .... If the property owner certifies that it is still accurate, the surveyor has no liability.
While you may be correct in thinking that the PLS shouldn't have to pay damages for the use of old work if the owner certifies, you are most definitely wrong in thinking that this sort of thing will never cost the PLS money.
When things go badly, and given enough time that is inevitable, law suits will be filed. Once that happens you can bet your backside that the surveyor will be included. The other side doesn't have to have a case to sue you. Often they don't. But when you are included, it will cost you money whether you did anything wrong or not.
I once had a client who was sued by his neighbors because they didn't like the people to whom he sold his property. He sold the property with a Non-Warranty Deed. There was nothing wrong with his title but he didn't want the chance of any problems. Sure enough, when the fecal matter hit the rotating metal blades it blew back all over him. He was able to get the case thrown out of court; but, it cost him $9,000 to do so.
The profession needs to stop letting third parties certify to our work. Those third parties are not qualified to do the certifications and sooner or later it will come back to bite us.
Just my opinion.
Larry P
Florida doesn't have a statute of limitations on legal matters??? 10 years is too far out and ONLY the land owner is making any claim about the documenmts. I do not think what you intimate would get very far in a court of law.
Florida info? New Code - please comment
Larry, do you have any further info on the Florida determination? Our new director has moved here from Florida and he is justifying this new code by stating that’s the way they do it in Florida and everywhere else in the lower 48.
Florida info? New Code - please comment
> Larry, do you have any further info on the Florida determination? Our new director has moved here from Florida and he is justifying this new code by stating that’s the way they do it in Florida and everywhere else in the lower 48.
Go to the FL Licensing Board website and look. I think they have a "position statement" saying that property owners are not legally authorized to make that sort of certification. It is a professional opinion and none (or almost none of them) have the license required.
As for that being how things are done in all of the lower 48.... no. Not even a little bit.
Larry P
Florida info? New Code - please comment
Larry,
I didn’t find anything on the Florida site, I sent email to them asking but if you or anyone else knows of a determination about this it would be very helpful.
Thanks
Florida info? New Code - please comment
Exactly WHO is indemnifying WHO? ... and that's done by statute/code and not in writing explicitly to the Land Surveyor?
Sounds like a whole lot of baloney to me.
Florida info? New Code - please comment
> Exactly WHO is indemnifying WHO? ... and that's done by statute/code and not in writing explicitly to the Land Surveyor?
>
> Sounds like a whole lot of baloney to me.
What was happening in FL ... and it happened bunches here too ... was a home owner would go to a bank for a loan. The bank and title insurance company would gladly use an old survey ... usually no time limits ... if the homeowner would sign a document stating that nothing had changed since the old survey dated.
That way, if there was a problem the bank and Title Insurance company would tell the home owner that all the consequences were all on the shoulders of the homeowner. The banks and TI companies viewed the document as a waiver and indemnification.
The FL board objected on the theory that home owners were not surveyors and did not have the legal authority to determine whether or not there had been important changes since some date in the past.
I will look later if I get time. Maybe Andy Johnson or one of the other FL guys can jump in and point us in the right direction.
Larry P
Florida info? New Code - please comment
As far as I know, owner affidavits are still happening in Florida.
Florida info? New Code - please comment
> As far as I know, owner affidavits are still happening in Florida.
Same in Ohio and PLSO has attempted to address this issue.
Florida info? New Code - please comment
No survey of any sort required up here for home sales or building permits. Owner can sketch his own property and show his house location meeting appropriate setbacks and agencies approve them without a second glance.
Not sure if what I am reading here is 'better' somewhere in between maybe?
You don't need a doctor to write that prescription, as long as the patient says he still needs it.
I mean really what is the home owner certifying? He can't recertify the drawing, it's dumb. The county or city should accept the old survey as good enough, or they should not for a building permit. Asking the owner to certify a survey...........
> You don't need a doctor to write that prescription, as long as the patient says he still needs it.
>
> I mean really what is the home owner certifying? He can't recertify the drawing, it's dumb. The county or city should accept the old survey as good enough, or they should not for a building permit. Asking the owner to certify a survey...........
This is about shifting liability. Any home owner foolish enough to certify an old product is accepting all sorts of liability.
Liability is one of those funny things. People don't seem to care about it until it is knocking on the door ready to eat them whole. Until then, out of sight, out of mind appears to be the rule. Of course, when it does come knocking it is far too late to worry about it.
Larry P
I have tried to convey the liability side to the Community Development Department and the fact that having a municipal code that gives someone permission to do this means they also take some of the liability. Their reply – We do not incur any liability by doing this, it’s a civil matter between the surveyor and the owner.
> I have tried to convey the liability side to the Community Development Department and the fact that having a municipal code that gives someone permission to do this means they also take some of the liability. Their reply – We do not incur any liability by doing this, it’s a civil matter between the surveyor and the owner.
I think you are right. The notion that government boards can do anything they want any way they want is a fallacy. When the lawsuits start flying they will be included just like everyone else.
Larry P
Florida info? New Code - please comment
Yes, IIRC, the insurance commissioner stated his own opinion that a home owner would know if anything on his property had changed, and he sees nothing wrong with signing an affidavit to that affect, as long as the owner was not taking legal responsibility for their opinion that nothing has changed. As far as I know, that's as far as it went, the surveyor board gave up and the "owner's affidavits" are still accepted by the title insurance industry.
Here's some info I found.
http://www.sarasotafloridalandsurveying.com/archives/tag/surveying-topics
Owner affidavits are still used. It's one of the reasons you won't see me sharing copies of any old work, no matter who asks for it. I know for a fact it will be used with that affidavit and/or given to the buyer as if it's current.
And that goes for the original client too. They get their copies of the survey map at the time of the contract. If they don't keep it safe, that's not my problem.
Andy.
