calcs from what? from where?
it's not unusual to find .1' in 50', but that isn't Control.?ÿ
If your office is sending you out to an uncontrolled site there is no reason to hold calcs, in fact there are good reasons to never hold them. If the site has control then it should match and you should use it, sounds like they send you out to a site with guesses, at that point I would establish my own control network and locate all the monuments to fix the calculations. Of course this would slow down production. Still beats buying a building.
Maybe I'm over thinking it but I would run a new random traverse and just shoot these two points that are 50 feet apart as side shots.?ÿ If you have only two years experience kind of hard to blame you for the problem.?ÿ Someone should be in the field showing you how its done.?ÿ
Cole, learn how to make use of a ??Natural? for establishing an initial control baseline. You will never be limited to 50?? for your control baseline. Never use theoretical coordinate positions as your control. Learn how to rotate and translate office calced points to your established field control and vice versa when appropriate.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ Most importantly use this opportunity to realize you will be much better off working for a different firm. Whether they make you the scapegoat for this project or not, you should seek out a better environment where you can learn the skills needed to further your career. Given the Denver market, you should find you have multiple options. Given the fact they allowed this scenario to occur, you will be severely hindered in your professional development, if you stay with your current employer.?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ?ÿ This might not be the advice you were seeking, but I think it is the most appropriate and you see that others have said pretty much the same.
I am puzzled, you were sent out with "office calcs" presumably from a deed or maybe from attempting to piece different surveys together as basically a worksheet. I have done these before when starting a job and it was a great help having it so I did not have to sort through a bunch of different sheets. Most of the time coordinates were provided simply as a means to inverse and be able to turn to another to try and find it. So, am I right in this, that you were provided a worksheet based on some dubious deed descriptions and calls or multiple surveys that were pieced together in cadd but never actually tied together in the field.
So you go out there and set up on one of these calc'ed points and BS another calc'ed point and get a significant error, (not uncommon and frankly to be expected) anyway you continue doing your survey and when complete you take it back and hand it off. Those office calc'ed points are never reconciled with the actual field locations and you fellas begin laying out a building and now after it is complete you notice the building is over the line.
Am I right so far??ÿ
If this is correct it is a trainwreck.
pretty much. the office provides me a txt file with point names and coords associated with them and an accompanying pdf of boundary search points. i dont know how they get this data, maybe from ALTAS or something. i go to site, usually find an obvious monument that correlates to the one on their pdf/txt file and setup on this point, and backsight another one that i physically find, preferably a long line. for this job, however, all prop pins were snug against buildings and so the only one i could use was a nail/disc and the furthest prop monument i could see (trees, buildings, urban are) was 50-75ft away. i used it, .1 off the office calc point (distance i suppose? maybe angle too?) from that setup, i shot a point in the middle of a parking lot where i could see another prop corner, moved to that point, stored prop cor...did this all the way around the 300x300 ft site, never storing shots exceeding current setup backsight distance. for whatever reason, as i got to the opposite side of the sight, search points were not matching my physically occupied observed/store points by as much as 1/2 ft. i stored the actual prop corner monuments obviously, and at the end of the day i sent all the data to the office, asking the office manager/drafter (a lazy person i now know) to look bc there were unusual disrepencies between his office calcs points and my stored points. i asked the next day too. i have a coworker who remembers me asking. i went back to the site a few weeks later to stake random stuff, one thing led to another, i had multiple jobs going and i guess i just figured if he didnt say anything i was good to go (stupid me) i staked the foundation, a year later, another surveyor for someone else says the building is enroaching and sure enough it is. i feel like saying "why the hell didnt you look at the points when i asked you!" but he is a part owner and i also know this is my fault too bc instead of refusing to work i just took the easy way out and staked stuff and went home. if i could go back, knowing what i know now, of course i never would have staked a damn thing except maybe the general overlot (dirt). but at the time i just thought thats how this company worked. now he is clearly going to tell the RLS that i screwed it all up, but i have to wait for hime to rat me out first, otherwise it looks like im ratting him out and not taking responsibility for my own mistakes (which are overly clear NOW looking back). what a mess, i feel like starting over, wishing i never left the company i was with first for the prospect of being a party chief so soon. now i have 2 companies in 2 years and if i quit or get fired it looks like crap. woe is me. haha. trainwreck is correct. 12 story building over the prop line into easement. trainwreck
thanks everyone for your replies
So they gave you calc points for the boundary pins only? Or they gave you calcs to start staking stuff too?
Read my post as it summarizes the flow of events.
They gave him a deed plot with coordinate points of various surveys or deeds and kinda pieced them together as best they could without benefit of a proper field survey.
So the O.P. takes his fancy deed plot with coordinates and he goes to work locating points he notices the discrepancies but being relatively young with limited experience he asks his supers to take a look. I can only assume they ignored hs concern.
Fast forward and it would appear the office people designed the lot and building and prepared stake out cut-sheets based on the pieced together deed plot.
This is a trainwreck and I cannot point fingers solely at the inexperienced guy but because poop flows downhill he will suffer the consequences.?ÿ
The office guy should be fired first.?ÿ
?ÿ
Edit: whenever I prepare for a new job I piece all the deeds and record surveys together as best I can with the record descriptions and calls. Often times there are different sized monuments called for between adjoining deeds and surveys. Unless it is a subdivision they NEVER EVER fit together well and there are Always gapsoverlaps whatever that must be reconciled and resolved after the field Survey.
Apparently the office dude never did the resolving part.
Cole,
Are you saying you find property monuments, but since you could not occupy them they were not useful to you? I am at a loss for useful comment.
Paul in PA
It is not all of Cole's fault.?ÿ Whoever is the surveyor in responsible charge, the one that certifies the survey for the site to go thru a development plan in metro area like Denver is the one that is at fault.?ÿ Lack of clear and concise direction of the execution of the field work falls directly on him/her as well as the execution of all QA/QC?ÿ SOP's in the company.?ÿ The lack of mentoring and the lack of QA/QC falls directly on the PLS.?ÿ He is the one who should be taking the lumps right now.?ÿ More than likely he certified a survey that says it was done under his direct supervision.?ÿ Another rubber stamper that will blame his staff.?ÿ I wonder if his State Board would accept his explanation of the FUBAR as being the party chief's inexperience??ÿ I doubt it.
Cole, if you loose your job over this, there are plenty of opportunities right now for good competent field staff in the Denver area or Front Range.?ÿ Just Google surveyor jobs in Colorado and you will see.?ÿ I like staff that will question what I am doing and willing to ask for help when they need it.?ÿ This is one example of the lack of mentoring of junior staff will cause.
SD
I'm going to forward a guess on my part.?ÿ They gave him coordinates to locate pins.?ÿ He finds pins, some off quite a bit, about a half foot.?ÿ He realizes this.?ÿ The error might not be in his work but the points that were figured for him.?ÿ Someone in the office just holds the calculated points and runs with it instead of the monuments he found.?ÿ Maybe there wasn't even a proper boundary survey done as a part of the job.
Don't feel you have to start on known points, run a new traverse with longer sights.?ÿ I usually just take a cloth tape to locate corners anyway.?ÿ I'm guessing this is just the way your company rolls, they want you to setup and stake a location to search for corners.
2 comments:
?ÿI see no reason to doubt anything Cole writes, but we're only hearing one side of the story. There may be something else going on.
Knowing how and what to do when things go wrong is among the toughest things in this business. It's both technical and personnel issues. Someone with a year or 2 of surveying experience might say "stop everything until this is sorted out". But he's not likely to be listened to or know what to do to get it fixed.
I don't post much at all, but I read all day every day. This one prompted me to log in and post.
In no particular order:
Cole has made a real effort - whatever his training has been -?ÿ to find a solution to this problem that he has admitted to creating. That's an honorable approach, even if it came a bit too far down the road.
It SOUNDS like Cole has been taught that his control (meaning points he occupies) and his property corner monuments MUST be the same points; side shots to monuments are not "allowed" in his world. Someone should address that, whether it is here on this forum or in his firm.?ÿ
Paul in PA has shown himself, over the years, to be one of the sharpest and most well-rounded dual licensees around. He's a PE and a PLS, right? That said, why can't he just settle down some and try to be helpful? Cole KNOWS he doesn't have the answer. Beating him over the head with that fact is just plain mean. Really, Paul? You can't offer ANY useful comments? If that's actually the case, then I feel sorry for anyone whose future is tied to your mentoring ability. You have an opportunity here (some may even call it a responsibility) to help someone who obviously cares about what he is doing and the best you can do is berate him? The fact is that someone like you can really help this guy but if you treat him like an idiot he won't hang around long enough to learn who you are and why he should listen to your advice. What a waste.
I sincerely hope this doesn't get deleted or edited.?ÿ
I shot almost all of the property monuments on site, they just had considerable discrepancies between where the office said they should be (via their txt search file) and where I was physically observing them ie: my deltas.
Yeah, that's what I was getting at with my last post. It sounds like he needed to rotate the calcs onto the boundary. But even then you wouldn't just start staking things immediately. Too much missing info to tell what's going on in this story.
Yupp.
Everyone is born a genius, but if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree it will forever believe itself an idiot...
Thanks for asking! Seems everyone is a “Party Chief” any more. Furthermore a chain person/ rod person is anyone’s neighbor kid that is free for the day/week/summer. Yet many insist on being called a professional. It takes much more than buying matching polo shirts with the company logo on it to be a professional surveying firm . Once again it sounds like you have a conscience and not sure of the training/education but with a good conscience, training and employer you sound like you will make a good surveyor. Keep asking questions and studying. My 2 cents, Jp
A slightly off-topic bit of advice: I wouldn??t go out of my way to smear this ??office guy? and rush to blame him either. While inexperienced enough in the field, I assume you have no office experience, and you didn??t seem to understand what your ??calc points? were, where they come from, or exactly what SHOULD have been done with your traverse/property ties after you turned in your work. Just remember that office work can be very complex as well and try not to take the ??office vs field? mentality along with you if you decide to move to another firm. Otherwise, I agree with everybody else, that there is more to this story and/or you are working for a shoddy operation. There seems to be some leadership and QA QC issues at this firm. Good luck either way though, hopefully it all works out
Everyone is born a genius,
Learning
To believe you are magnificent.?ÿ And gradually to discover that you are not magnificent.?ÿ Enough labor for one human life.
Czeslaw Milosz, Road-side Dog (translated by Czeslaw Milosz and Robert Hass) (Farrar, Straus and Giroux 1998).
?ÿI did not get that Cole shot all the monumentation he found,?ÿ then may have jumped to the wrong conclusion when he complained about where it was.
At times I have found pins all over and disregarded them and held building joints and splits on double houses as better evidence. Not knowing what has gone on in Denver in the past. I get back to my best advice, he should have been talking to the boss on day 2.?ÿ There are places where offset PKs would be held and others where you look for slice marks on the face of old set granite (not Belgian Block) or slate curb. In other towns the only worthwhile control are monuments at the midpoints of instersections?ÿ and then there is the preponderance of the evidence.
I have been able to help dratfsmen and engineers by remote control because I can picture what they should be seeing. That is not easily done with reconn survey work because there is too much to see for the other party to relate.
Paul in PA?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ ?ÿ
