My 2 Cents On Labor Shortage

Mike LaFontaine, post: 442689, member: 8148 wrote: From 2011-2015 it could be easy to say that a good portion of surveyors "left" the profession

Here in the PNW it was more like 2007-2016. And not just people leaving the profession, but more to the point nobody entering it.

Mike LaFontaine, post: 442689, member: 8148 wrote: THERE WAS NO TRAINING GOING ON WHEN 1 MAN CREWS WHERE BEING UTILIZED.

That's an issue, but I'd guess that a majority of crews are still 2 man. Anyway, we live in a connected world. Just because I'm maybe not right there with a developing PC I'm still just a phone call away. I should be able to debrief before and after the work day. My point being that we just have to find new ways to get it done, and there are tons of new options out there - RPLStoday being an important example. I actually think that training new people is less of an issue than it ever has been before.

I agree with the recession leaving a knowledge gap, here in the South East I have been saying it for about two years when I first noticed the decline in qualified candidates.
I have begun implementing the use of the CST program to train better surveyors, it helps the company and themselves grow up and out of that I-man position.

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Maybe not a survey profession issue alone. I see the same storyline in ENR magazine coming from the construction trades people and to a lessor extent the engineer and architects.
Locally I hear a very similar storyline from almost all business persons. The common line is that itt is difficult today to find good workers who want to learn a job from the bottom up. Many want to be paid for all their training (i.e., don't want to crack the books on their own time/dime). And entry level folks expecting top level pay at the get go.
A guy I know who owns a tile setting business told me he can't get any tile setters because all the helpers he used to use are now growing and selling weed.
true story.

Almost never have a two man crew, only for construction staking. The other day I did go put with my PC, he went one way to work off the base, I went another,,,,,,,,but that's two one man crews working the same job.

For me two man crews ended about 1996.

Not only are a lot of young people unwilling to put in the time and pay their dues, too many kids are being pushed into four year colleges where they earn useless degrees that don't qualify them to do anything meaningful, then think they should get paid six figures because they have a college degree. There's not enough kids coming out of high school and entering the skilled trades. I've heard that in some parts of the country journeyman welders are commanding over $100/hour.

Lee D, post: 442712, member: 7971 wrote: Not only are a lot of young people unwilling to put in the time and pay their dues, too many kids are being pushed into four year colleges where they earn useless degrees that don't qualify them to do anything meaningful, then think they should get paid six figures because they have a college degree. There's not enough kids coming out of high school and entering the skilled trades. I've heard that in some parts of the country journeyman welders are commanding over $100/hour.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that.

I have no regrets for having started my career with a college degree. It has served me well in both my career as a surveyor and in life in general. I highly encourage that path for anyone.
I know many fine surveyors who learned the profession without college and I agree whole heartedly that an apprentice/on-the-job path is a good route. However I don't disparage those who choose the college path if not just simply because I are one.

clearcut, post: 442724, member: 297 wrote: I don't disparage those who choose the college path

I'm not disparaging anyone; you're missing my point entirely.

I completely agree. There are too many people on the bachelors or bust track. They'll get the degree with few job prospects, or they'll fail to get the degree and see it as game over. It is sad.

Lee D, post: 442712, member: 7971 wrote: Not only are a lot of young people unwilling to put in the time and pay their dues, too many kids are being pushed into four year colleges where they earn useless degrees that don't qualify them to do anything meaningful, then think they should get paid six figures because they have a college degree. There's not enough kids coming out of high school and entering the skilled trades. I've heard that in some parts of the country journeyman welders are commanding over $100/hour.

Interviewed a kid who wanted to start at 70k. He has some CAD experience and no survey experience. I sent him hone with an older regulation with the expectation of a quiz a week later. A day later he emailed a decline as he did not want to read the 45 page document.
We have had issues getting good help. Some days I want to just hunker down and run solo.

Big shortage of good help here as well. We need people, but good ones you can trust are few and far between.

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Mark Mayer, post: 442700, member: 424 wrote: I actually think that training new people is less of an issue than it ever has been before.

Finding good people to train is another matter, indeed.

Unfortunately, we have a LOST GENERATION out there that passed thru childhood and puberty and are of working age that have never made the connection that they must actually participate in and physically perform a multitude of tasks that are beneficial and necessary to be called work.

With all their and my framed accomplishments of school, college and license and $7.99 plus tax I can get a pizza.

Not sure what to make of the current employment dynamic in this country. In my state, it's J-1 and H-2B visas for seasonal jobs, and apparently H-1B visas aren't losing any steam nationwide for knowledge work. In our globalized economy, we're now competing with everybody.
https://www.adn.com/features/business-economy/2016/08/13/in-alaska-young-foreign-workers-on-cultural-exchange-visas-wash-the-dishes-and-make-the-beds-of-tourists/
https://www.adn.com/business-economy/2017/07/31/hiring-seafood-workers-in-bristol-bay-has-been-tough-for-years-this-summer-its-worse/

Main problem companies don't pay there employees enough. Next is demanding supervisor pay and work ethic of people. Average wage for a PC in my area is 18-25/hour. Same person putting out less effort and needing less smarts could get a job as a lineman at a local electric company for $18/hr plus benefits and be making $25/hr in two years.
Point is we as a profession need to charge more and pay more so we can weed out the dim wits

TXSurveyor, post: 442841, member: 6719 wrote: Main problem companies don't pay there employees enough. Next is demanding supervisor pay and work ethic of people. Average wage for a PC in my area is 18-25/hour. Same person putting out less effort and needing less smarts could get a job as a lineman at a local electric company for $18/hr plus benefits and be making $25/hr in two years.
Point is we as a profession need to charge more and pay more so we can weed out the dim wits

Yes, this. The public doesn't value our services, and therefore pays accordingly. This translates directly to how much we get paid and can pay our help. A clogged toilet breeds urgency, a latent title problem...well that can wait. Should licenced surveyors make as much as lawyers? Should our trusted and loyal crews make a wage equivalent with the importance of their work? Of course, yes, but we can't get paid/pay the true value of the work unless we are invoicing the client the price our toil is worth.

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Funny thing is Amazon can generate thousands of applications for jobs (extremely grueling work too) that pays $12 to $13/hour.

Same with the Fire and Police. Maybe we are approaching the problem incorrectly.

It's all the fault of the parents. Haven't you learned that yet? It's the so-called parents who enable their children to become unlikely employees anywhere.

It's all the fault of the schools. Haven't you learned that yet? It's the so-called educational system that encourages students to find themselves and awards them all sorts of bizarre trophies, ribbons and exalting titles for doing little more than being present.

It's all the fault of the employers. Haven't you learned that yet? It's the greedy owners who want to re-institute slavery where the workers actually must do work in order to receive a paycheck instead of being handed a paycheck simply for agreeing to show up from time to time, when it's convenient to their schedule.

It's all the fault of the government...........................oops.............................never mind..........................................

It's (so and so's fault) because it can't possibly be the fault of the injured individual doing the whining.

The bottom line is that we have to make jobs attractive to the group of people who might actually possess the various skills needed to eventually succeed at it. First, they must know the surveying profession exists. You don't see any TV shows featuring the thrill-packed adventures of a survey firm. You don't see any movies made about the greatness we know as the world of surveying. We have no major advertising similar to "Be all that you can be" that wakes up young people to the possibilities for them in our profession. Face it. We are as dull as a butter knife.

Recently on a Facebook page directed mostly toward the field audience, aptly named, "The Field Crew" I posed a question about moving someone up the ladder from rodman to I-man. The responses were far and wide, and quite a few were directed toward there is no longer a ladder. The ladder is dead because of the 1 Man Crew. The idea of apprenticeship is slowly dying, yet that is exactly what surveyors need. I do not mean to hijack the thread, however this where the 4 year degree is lacking. Folks that work their way up through the field have a greater knowledge of how distances are actually measured. "Everything is easier on paper" is a quote I am sure most of the "old school" surveyors have claimed once or twice while cutting line through a job that should have taken 5 less hours. Learning how to deal with errors in the field, hostile neighbors, as well as anything else that may arise during any given survey is crucial to the profession and those aspects are something that simply cannot be taught by a textbook. Apprenticeship is dying quickly and giving way to the "1 Man Crew".

I believe this comes back to the idea that if you want it done right, then do it yourself. It is easier for a person in the know to run a robot, collect the data necessary, and return with a fruitful field trip. The guys that know how to do it, are doing great as a solo team and that is great for them. I too have found myself lately wishing to have a robot and good GPS. That attitude however, leads to the exact predicament the industry is in now. If there is no ladder to climb, then there is no reason to climb it. There is no reason for a younger person or a person seeking an alternate career to choose surveying. The ones that have had the privilege of learning the industry from the roots are the only ones benefiting, and not even benefiting to the fullest extent because of formal education requirements. Surveying is the best example of a "well paying" dead end job. Without a degree one is stuck, and the "1 Man Crew" will hold the profession there until apprenticeship is recognized again.

Holy Cow, post: 442874, member: 50 wrote: You don't see any TV shows featuring the thrill-packed adventures of a survey firm

This could be the next big thing!! Maybe Paden can write the first season and we can pitch it to Hollywood!!