Holy Cow, post: 444811, member: 50 wrote: Nothing in my 16 hours of calculus prepared me for that task.
And in your youth did you really think that mastering calculus was the road to surveying successnor just a prerequisite BS course to soldier through?
Poison Sumac generally doesn't bother me but I also wear long sleeves in the field nowadays. In years past it was just short sleeves but not anymore.
And if you had the chance to do it again, (become a surveyor) would you?
Would you advise that young man from Florida to go the surveying route or be something else? As for me, I would absolutely tell him to do something else.
How life rolls is an odd thing to evaluate. I had no intention of being a surveyor. None. When I first took it up it was merely a necessary tool in our engineering tool box to complete the complicated field designs we were involved with. More topo than boundary, but a mix of both. Ten years later it was a means to make some money without moving. Again, it was not my chosen field, merely more dollars coming in. I would not recommend the route I happened to follow to anyone else if they want to be a surveyor.
So many things go into how life rolls. Marital strife. Young mouths to feed. Opportunities not taken for any one of a hundred reasons that all made perfect sense at the time. Throwing your line out in a huge pond and getting a strike on the first cast.............but it didn't turn out to be the big fish you thought it would be. Learning there are mental, emotional and physical limitations where none had existed in the past. Being stubborn simply because you had been told stubbornness was a virtue in all circumstances. Toeing the line and following the rules when the apparent winners were not doing that.
The days when getting dressed for work meant selecting the best three-piece suit with stylish flare for the specific occasion was supposed to represent success in life but more clearly defined how stressful that life really is. Hobnobbing with the high and mighty may be prestigious but makes one aware of how human those people are and how so many of them do not deserve respect once you know a bit too much about them. Traveling across the country routinely sounds glamorous to most but is the exact opposite most of the time. Dining in fine restaurants isn't much fun at all when you are doing it alone and regularly.
How does one learn to measure which things in life really mean something and should be maximized? If you suddenly had $500,000 and could do anything you wanted with it, what would you do? If the job choice was high pay or high personal satisfaction, which would you choose? If you could work at what you consider to be your ideal job, where would you want to be doing that? Which do you prefer to amass, more knowledge or more prestige? How would you attempt to change your life if you were suddenly living alone and only responsible for yourself and no one else?
The range of opportunities available to someone who has followed the correct process in their specific geographic area to become licensed is enormous. But, so are the number of specializations that may put the individual in a box from which they may never escape. Office vs field. Research vs math. Business vs seat-of-the-pants. Leader vs follower. Avid learner of everything new on the horizon vs satisfied with the status quo. Sales vs solitude. High risk vs low risk. Dedicated long term employee vs willing to move on at any time. Statistician vs close enough.
What ever "it" is, that is what is best for a specific individual. That same "it" may be completely wrong for another individual.
Holy Cow, post: 444820, member: 50 wrote: ...What ever "it" is, that is what is best for a specific individual. That same "it" may be completely wrong for another individual.
[MEDIA=youtube]fyBaYduYMvI[/MEDIA]
I've always wanted a bait and tackle shop but something seems to always get in the way.
Is the opinion of the brain trust here that a labor shortage is at a certain level of surveying? Seems like the theme is too few new good prospects and too few good party chiefs. If a guy wants to become an PLS is it a necessity to become a partner or owner? If not how is the pay? I realize these are subjective questions, but isn't the industry creating competition and rivalry to some degree. Guys think they can do it better or want to earn more so they break off to do their own thing. I could be wrong but I've observed this type of pattern.
Again, I'm curious because I personally like surveying but I also want to get a good return on the lengthy education. There are jobs that are self-serving or of little value to society but pay quite well. Is it a foregone conclusion that if you choose a satisfying occupation you have to sacrifice a great income?
What are some of the real earnings for PLSs in the private/public sectors? I've done plenty of research but answers are averages and statistics which can be difficult to trust. Not asking anybody their take home pay, but perhaps some knowledge of salaries or colleagues in your regions? I know what an aspiring I-Man earns and what mediocre Party Chiefs can expect. What should a B.S. graduate expect, and after a decade of learning with a license would you have to become a business owner to maximize earnings or do certain companies pay good salaries for people with ambition and leadership qualities?
Engineering salaries seem to be pretty okay? Downside is the desk time and extra serious requirements for the degree and licensing. Does a PLS end up in the office just as much? Or like some have said, does field work make guys question the payout when the conditions are lousy or as age begins to take a toll? - Derek
That's a lot of questions.
----------------------------------
I'm reminded of Harvey Korman in Blazing Saddles.
Hedley Lamarr:
My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives.
---------------------------------------
Can you maybe condense your thoughts down a bit. I'm an open book when it comes to surveying and as a result I can about guarantee that I will ruffle some feathers of others on this forum. It seems a lot of people will exaggerate the money earned so I don't know if I would believe much of it.
I love surveying and hate surveying at the same time. My opinions are listed above.
D Bendell, post: 445256, member: 12975 wrote: Is the opinion of the brain trust here that a labor shortage is at a certain level of surveying? Seems like the theme is too few new good prospects and too few good party chiefs. If a guy wants to become an PLS is it a necessity to become a partner or owner? If not how is the pay? I realize these are subjective questions, but isn't the industry creating competition and rivalry to some degree. Guys think they can do it better or want to earn more so they break off to do their own thing. I could be wrong but I've observed this type of pattern.
Again, I'm curious because I personally like surveying but I also want to get a good return on the lengthy education. There are jobs that are self-serving or of little value to society but pay quite well. Is it a foregone conclusion that if you choose a satisfying occupation you have to sacrifice a great income?
What are some of the real earnings for PLSs in the private/public sectors? I've done plenty of research but answers are averages and statistics which can be difficult to trust. Not asking anybody their take home pay, but perhaps some knowledge of salaries or colleagues in your regions? I know what an aspiring I-Man earns and what mediocre Party Chiefs can expect. What should a B.S. graduate expect, and after a decade of learning with a license would you have to become a business owner to maximize earnings or do certain companies pay good salaries for people with ambition and leadership qualities?
Engineering salaries seem to be pretty okay? Downside is the desk time and extra serious requirements for the degree and licensing. Does a PLS end up in the office just as much? Or like some have said, does field work make guys question the payout when the conditions are lousy or as age begins to take a toll? - Derek
In Alaska, at least before our current recession, if you were smart and willing to work the hours in oil and gas/public construction, then a PC could be making six figures. Some of that is still around, but not as readily available as it was 10 years ago. But sh!t gets old fast--you can't live the village/slope life forever.
If you want to be a townie and earn the same money, then you need to be a money-maker/associate/partner with a consulting firm. You'll probably spend most of your time at a desk, and for a principal, your daily life will look almost identical to the daily life of an equivalent engineer.
I sometimes use the caveman test: If a caveman watched my work day, could he really tell it apart from an engineer's day? No. Would it look different from a party chief's day? Yep, waaay different.
Just A. Surveyor, post: 443455, member: 12855 wrote: Oh this is a subject I have lamented on for a long time and you can blame many things but the biggest is the MONEY MONEY MONEY!
Largely yes, BUT starting about 25 years ago I started seeing the work ethic issue crop up and it hasn't gone away, this is across all occupations, as many posts in this thread indicate it is more than the $$$, but of course that is a factor too.
SHG
I chalk it up to a sense of entitlement a lot of people seem to have these days. It's not isolated to this profession and it permeates society. I think one of the things that helped me get ahead was the realization at a fairly young age that the world owes me nothing. I will only get out what I put in and there are dues to be paid, egos to be checked at the door and a sincere desire to learn everything possible and do the best job possible with pride, even if it leaves some bruises. I guess it's a bit intimidating everything that goes into being a surveyor. I remember one guy that came to work with me from a construction background and I handed him some field notes and a finished drawing and asked him to take some time to study how the drawing went together from the field notes so that he could help with the drafting and he turned up his nose and tossed the notes off to the side where they sat for weeks. I was telling him what I needed for him to learn and I was willing to help him learn it, but he wasn't interested. He didn't last long.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
My 2 cents is we are trying to hire a bunch of spoiled brats, who have received trophies their entire life for participation. That expect to paid top dollar without giving any effort.
They think because they show up to work they have achieved some great accomplishment. And deserve recognition and praise.
They are 25 to 30 still living with Mommy and Daddy who continue to spoil them and blame the world for their lack of success.
It's not the wages that created a labor shortage. It's the sense of entitlement that the youth have today that created the problem.
Parents raised their kids with no respect, discipline or work ethic. They could do nothing wrong and never had consequences to there actions.
I started surveying at 17 for $4.00/hr. I didn't choose this career it chose me. At first I hated it. But I didn't bitch like the guys today. I showed up and did my job. But I also stayed on rain days and took classes at night to further my education to advance my career. By the time I was 21, had moved in the office and started learning cad. At that time I was making $11/hr. I bought a house, truck and a dog. I was a responsible adult making my own way. Now some 20 years later I am a partner is a firm and make a good living.
I owe my my position in life to parents who said NO. To parents who didn't buy me everything I wanted and made me work for my wants.
So again the problem is not $$$ it's the belief that they are owed something for nothing.
Was watching the nightly business report the other night. 35% of the working age population has chosen to 'opt out' of the work force. How do you do that and still eat?
Steve
I'd agree with the "kids these days" argument if it weren't for some serious counter evidence: There are still high quality ER docs, surgeons, accountants, electrical linemen, firefighters, soldiers, and troopers coming out of the Millennial generation. It almost pains me to say it, because I've seen my share of the phone face, entitled, bratty, gamer, lazy, pierced punks come and go...but still, I don't think the "kids these days" is really the problem with recruitment and retention.
Nationwide and Statewide educational policies have influenced this to a large extent. Historically speaking, schools had a primary function of making young people prepared to enter the job market when they reached the age of employment. During the No Child Left Behind era, the focus changed to establishing certain "knowledge" standards. In order to place more focus on the "knowledge" issue, many of the standard "structure" issues were tossed out the window. Flexible classes, flexible hours, flexible credit requirements, rewards for the sake of ego boosting, everyone was a "winner". Now, certain States are attempting to turn things around to get back to the "career ready" issues but a large institutional inertia is slowing the process. Educators and administrators below a certain age can't remember the old ways and some of the older ones hate to change because the work was so much easier. Teaching to the test is simple.
I have been serving on our local school board for the past 4-plus years and also served between 1987 and 1991. My wife has taught in a neighboring school district since 1983. There is much discussion on educational issues around this house. Within the past week I have had telephone chats with both the Chairman of the Kansas State Board of Education and the Commissioner of Education for the State of Kansas. I am very serious about working to reverse the problems for the betterment of my community.
The Commissioner and State Board members spent a year touring the State to meet with business owners, community leaders, average citizens and school representatives in order to poll them as to what they saw as being critical to the improvement of the functional capabilities of a 24 year-old. The result was the Kansans Can project/goals. Currently, seven of the 286 school districts have been chosen to be the guinea pigs. They will be provided a sorts of guidance on how to redesign what they do every day in order to fulfill the five primary goals of the Kansans Can project. Another 21 schools applied to take the lead so they will be provided much of the same guidance in a more generalized form. As the first 28 conduct this experiment you can believe every other school district in the State of Kansas will be watching closely to cherrypick what they see as very worthwhile changes they can make. Two "crews" have been established to oversee and review the progress and then make suggestions to the redesign team. These 20-member crews are formed of a broad base from educators and administrators to local community leaders. Our District Superintendent was selected to serve on one of the two crews. Our local School Board will be watching closely.
http://www.ksde.org/Portals/0/Communications/Vision/KC_Vision_for_Education_KS_webspread.pdf