Multiple Originals?

Don,

I actually had a town ask me for 5 original of the plans.
It old them that there is one original and I will make them copies.

What they really wanted were five copies with wet stamps.

Jim in NH

Now that's something I don't mind doing...

Funny thing is that an exhibit such as this could be done on a napkin and recorded with the easement.

Shoot, I thought you were going to talk about multiple original monuments!
😉

I have plats that I have to send to two different agencies and they both want "originals". So.... I sign two and send them both directions.

> What they really wanted were five copies with wet stamps.

There's really only one "original", beacsue if any changes have to be made, that's where they will be done. Anything else is a copy.

The whole reason for a licensed individual having a seal (raised or inked) is so that he or she can use it to show the authenticity of any document produced.

I consider anything with an original signed signature to be an "original". And I never give out a plat with a photocopied signature. In fact in Virginia the signatures have to be original. And I always sign in blue ink.

One original. Copy's are labeled as exact copy's of the original. If a Plat, the original gets recorded at the Clerks Office and a copy is filed in the Survey Records. For Record of surveys, a reproducibly and copy's are filed with the County Surveyor. When I was working in a engineering office, originals stayed in the office and blue line copy's were sent out.
jud

Interesting question. My first thought was that when I print and sign/seal 2 or 3 of most drawings as MULTIPLE ORIGINALS, BUT...
There was a time when all the hand drafted "Certificate of Survey" drawings where done on mylar that stayed in the office and could be revised. Copies where made and signed/sealed, but the original is still here in the office (un-signed).
So, I now I would say that the only original is the CAD drawing on my computer. When I print 2 or 3 and sign/seal for the client, those are copies. The exception here in Michigan would be Subdivision Plats that end up at the county as an original. Although it is actually a photographic reproduction that they made two of and the state keeps one 🙂 Silly

> I have a client that always wants multiple originals. I dont' mind stamping blueprints or copies, but how can you have multiple originals? Isn't that self defeating?

When you read through the legal definitions of what is an "original" vs. a "copy," you'll find a different perspective than most I've heard in our profession. I, for one, had to do some re-thinking after I researched what they really mean.

Here are a few quotations from the Federal Rules of Evidence that I posted a few days ago on another topic:

> Rule 1001. Definitions That Apply to This Article
> In this article:
> (a) A “writing” consists of letters, words, numbers, or their equivalent set down in any form.
> (b) A “recording” consists of letters, words, numbers, or their equivalent recorded in any manner.
> (c) A “photograph” means a photographic image or its equivalent stored in any form.
> (d) An “original” of a writing or recording means the writing or recording itself or any counterpart intended to have the same effect by the person who executed or issued it. For electronically stored information, “original” means any printout — or other output readable by sight — if it accurately reflects the information. An “original” of a photograph includes the negative or a print from it.
> (e) A “duplicate” means a counterpart produced by a mechanical, photographic, chemical, electronic, or other equivalent process or technique that accurately reproduces the original.

According to those definitions, the "original" could be considered as the AutoCad drawing file, the Adobe pdf file created from it, or any copy printed from the electronic source. They're all versions of the "original." I had always thought of the "original" as the mylar, but that's not a proper view given the definition.

What I used to think of as a "copy" (a blueline run from the mylar) or multiple sets of plans would seem to fall under the definition of a "duplicate original." I ended up making a big red stamp that I use to mark "duplicate originals." However, when it comes down to it, both are considered admissible in court, so it really doesn't matter unless someone challenges the content of the duplicate (a forgery occurs). The "original" will always win out over the "duplicate."

> Rule 1002. Requirement of the Original
> An original writing, recording, or photograph is required in order to prove its content unless these rules or a federal statute provides otherwise.

> Rule 1003. Admissibility of Duplicates
> A duplicate is admissible to the same extent as the original unless a genuine question is raised about the original’s authenticity or the circumstances make it unfair to admit the duplicate.

I'd suggest that you incorporate a method for keeping both the electronic copy (a pdf file that can be faithfully reproduced) and an unaltered hard-copy for your files. Both are considered the original. Any reproduction made from them are considered duplicates and are subject to challenge if found different from the original held in your possession.

JBS

Don-

In Ontario we have:
29. (1) Every professional member shall obtain from the Association the appropriate seal for his or her class of membership. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 1026, s. 29 (1); O. Reg. 218/10, s. 15 (1).

(2) A professional member of the Association shall return his or her seal upon the suspension or cancellation of his or her licence or certificate of registration. O. Reg. 218/10, s. 15 (2).

(3) A print of a plan of survey is not a valid copy unless it bears the embossed seal of the licensed member who signed the plan or the embossed seal of a licensed member employed by the corporation or public agency responsible for the plan's preparation or the corporate seal of the corporation holding a certificate of authorization that was responsible for the plan's preparation. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 1026, s. 29 (3).

Cheers

Derek

PS-

Where's that young Poole GPSer ?

For all practical purposes, today, the original is in the electronic file. We may print five or more "originals" with blue ink signature and stamp. The only thing that ever gets modified at a later time is what is stored in the electronic file. Then "new originals" are created.

I work very hard to provide multiple O's to all my clients. The satisfaction of delivering a solid "Massman MO" is what keeps me going on a day-to-day basis. I find that a client who has been on the receiving end of a Massman "MO" cannot write that check fast enough. It does add an extra element to the work and can be challenging to deliver after a tough day in the field, but the rewards are there. Yes they are.

Oh...originals.

Have a great weekend. We are off to Savannah for an anniversary weekend with dinner at the Olde Pink House as a highlight. Whoo Hooo!

"There's really only one "original"..."

I too believed this for over 50 years. Then I read the definition in Black's...

There can be any number of originals.

This is what I found in Black's:

"Original": first in order; bearing its own authority, and not deriving authority from an outside source; as original jurisdiction, original writ, etc.

As applied to documents, the original is the first copy or archetype; that from which another instrument is transcribed, copied, or imitated.

Definition of "archetype": The original copy.

Definition of "certified copy": A copy of a document signed and certified as a true copy by the officer to whose custody the original is intrusted.