> While I fully agree with you, currently the New Jersey State Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors does not.
>
> N.J.A.C. 13:40-8.1 Sealing documents
>
> (a) All sealing of documents shall be done with an impression-
> type seal, the design of which shall be authorized by
> the Board and shall contain the name and license number of
> the professional engineer or professional land surveyor and
> the legend "Licensed Professional Engineer," "Licensed Land
> Surveyor" or "Licensed Professional Engineer and Land Surveyor,"
> as the case may be. Alternatives, such as digital seals
> or rubber stamp facsimiles of the seal shall not be permitted.
>
> There has been a push to get them to allow digital seals but so far they have said no.
Sounds like there needs to be a push to have the board members either informed or replaced. The New Jersey legislature adopted UETA in 2001. The board is 10 years (at least) behind the times and, in my opinion, is exposing the land surveying and engineering professionals to unwarranted liability by adhering to the use of ancient technology in a modern society. There stance also has an impact on the economic advantages of interstate and international commerce.
I would very much appreciate an invitation to your next annual conference where I can make a 4-hour presentation on the advantages found in the UETA legislation in combination with the use of digital vs electronic signatures. The New Jersey board (and they're not alone) is way behind the times and is in the minority of other boards across the country if they're still requiring hard-copies, wet-stamps or crimp-stamps. Of the three, crimp-stamps are the most ancient. [sarcasm]It's nice to see they've advanced beyond the requirement for wax seals.[/sarcasm]
JBS
From a homeowner's point of view, if the homeowner got wind of the resistance of surveyors to issue plats more than a few months after the survey was done, the homeowner would order enough certified plats to last as long as the homeowner plans to own the property with no significant alterations, so they can be submitted for whatever building permits or similar permits the homeowner might need during the period of ownership. After all, if my property is just the way it was when I bought it, why should I pay $1000 for a survey to get a building permit for a $1000 garden shed?
> I am getting so sick for requests of multiple originals.
I found an interesting note on our older plats/surveys around here. We do not use this note anymore, but we used to:
(bold and italics added by me for emphasis)
This map represents an electronic data file developed by (X Company, Inc). X Company holds a hardcopy representation of this file and that hard copy is the original. Any change to the data contained in this file is considered unauthorized unless reviewed by the undersigned surveyor. Any reuse or adaptation of this file is at the user's risk unless reviewed by the undersigned surveyor for suitability.
Multiple Originals>MA Land Court>JBS
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 2.1.5. DRAFTING REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL PLANS
> 2.1.5.1.Media. Every plan presented pursuant to these instructions shall be on non-erasable media of durable material (anticipated life span exceeding 100 years under normal storage conditions) that readily accepts permanent black ink and upon which alterations of the plan are readily discernable. Such media must be widely available in roll stock and 24 inch by 36 inch sheet formats. In addition, if a DXF file, DWG drawing, PDF file or some other computer digital format approved by the Chief Surveyor is available, it should accompany the plan for filing. The Survey Division should be consulted relative to choice of media.
Excellent example of an entirely antiquated law floundering to retain viability.
The bolded part above provides a clue as to the thinking behind such a statute. The idea was not to prevent forgeries and fraud, but to make them detectible when then happened. Technology provides much better detection techniques today than were available in the ancient past when these laws were formed.
There is no logical reason that the pdf file which accompanies the plan can't be digitally signed. The file stored for much longer than 100 years and can be reproduced as often as necessary to create as many originals as they want in whatever format they want them using whatever medium they have 100 years from now.
I notice the rule seems to overstep its jurisdictional authority by requiring the media manufacturers to ensure that "the media must be widely available...". I'm sure the manufacturers quiver at the thought of having to maintain a production line of an archaic product for the fulfillment of a need for a few thousand plats per year or to face the wrath of a licensing board with no teeth.
This line of thinking is precisely why we struggle as a profession. We're so stuck in the past that we can't see a way to provide a modern product that meets the needs of a modern society. Laws such as the one here presented affect no one but the surveyors, engineers and architects. If we don't take the lead in changing the laws, no one will. Who cares?
JBS
PS: This isn't an attack on Don, as I have a very deep respect for him and his achievements for our profession.
That statement sums up what is legal in Texas.
I will send out a pdf made by scanning a signed crimp sealed original with red pencil shading over the crimp seal. The original is kept in the file with the rest of the project.
What is not on the scanned pdf is the security features imprinted on the original. It is like copying a check and the security features will not show up on the scan or copy.
😉
Multiple Originals>MA Land Court>JBS
Nothing Personal taken John, I didn't make the laws, I just have to work with them.
to be honest, this is the least of our problems in MA. I have a huge problem with condominiums being created without the benefit of a site plan prepared by a PLS... I think there are bigger fish to fry than our medium...
> That statement sums up what is legal in Texas.
>
Electronic and digital signatures are allowed for Engineers in TX per 137.35, why not surveyors?
It seems the surveying board is close to allowing electronic files, but hasn't quite understood the advantages of a truly digital signature.
>>§661.46. Seal and Stamps.
>>At the time the applicant receives a certificate of registration/licensure, the applicant will also be instructed to secure an impression seal of the type specified by the board. As soon as the registrant has secured an impression seal, the registrant shall make an imprint thereof and shall forward said imprint to the board for its files. A rubber stamp is not considered an impression seal, but may be used at the discretion of the licensee for the purpose of this rule. A rubber stamp signature is not permitted. A registrant or licensee may place their seal and signature on electronic data at the surveyor's discretion, provided that a hard copy form is signed, sealed and retained by the surveyor and carries an original signature and seal.
Of course, their requirement completely obfuscates the advantages provided under the TX UETA laws and bypasses the advantages of a digital signature which is, by TX law, an "original signature."
> I will send out a pdf made by scanning a signed crimp sealed original with red pencil shading over the crimp seal. The original is kept in the file with the rest of the project.
>
> What is not on the scanned pdf is the security features imprinted on the original. It is like copying a check and the security features will not show up on the scan or copy.
>
That is precisely why the current method is not the best method available. Use of a digital signature provides a number of benefits which protect you from forgery and fraud. The method you're required to employ (because of antiquated rules) negates you from taking advantages of laws designed to protect you. Digital signatures provide the security features your method lacks.
JBS
JBS
JBS
I stated what I do. It is the standard practice of most Texas Surveyors.
In fact, there are many, many Texas Surveyors that do not send out any digital form of their work.
Most of my clients do not care for a digital file. It is the Title Companies, Attorneys and Banks ask for them so they can take my work and place into their form. As you, they feel insulted when we sent them paper and have to type by hand into their forms.
Like JBS, engineers have tried to be the ones that say what everyone else has to comply with. Oddly enough, not everyone wants to be moved into the digital age.
Texas does not require their Surveyors to use computers, TS or GPS. We must be able to survey to the standards by what ever means we choose.
Engineers, pardon my feelings about this. The product of engineers do not meet the standards that the surveyors in Texas must adhere to.
Most engineers produce plans that follow the best fit policy and their plans are used a guide and do not always show the actual finished product. Most of their plans are labeled "typical examples" of what is to be. They send out many digital copies to bidders that have to take that to a print shop.
A surveyor produces a product that is final, no exceptions. We show what is under quality conditions that represent the facts.
I am proud to sign, stamp and crimp every document that leaves my office.
Understand, in Texas the complete law is intended to be complied with.
Many send out their digital data and fail to retain the document that carries an original signature and seal in their hard copy files.
😉
Multiple Originals>MA Land Court>JBS
In most places there is no infrastructure to maintain readable computer files for 100 years. There is also no infrastructure to maintain secure digital signatures for 100 years, although there ideas about how it might be done. You might say that there is no need to maintain security for 100 years, because any forgery is likely to be detected within 5 or 10 years. But what is to stop someone in 2110 from faking a digital plat that purports to be from 2012? The clues that examiners of traditional paper or mylar antique documents use would be absent.
I just state a reasonable number of plans in my proposal/contract.
All of mine are originals, since I don't have a copier, and all are sealed/signed from the plotter.
Usually provide between four and six. If they want a few more, no problem. After that, I'll suggest that they go to Fed-Ex/Kinkos - I'm not a copy service.
(not even going to get involved in the digital debate here).
How can there be more than one original? By definition there cannot be more than one original. Some of the local counties do require two identically signed mylars for recording purposes. Outside of that odd requirement I only create one original, mylar when it for recording purposes and paper copies for ALL other documents.
Not one of them has a wet seal either. I can't remember the last time I had to use my actual stamp, it's so much easier just to add it to your electronic document.
What is the crimping I am reading about? I have never heard of a surveyor crimping anything....maybe a notary stamp but never a surveyor.
> How can there be more than one original? By definition there cannot be more than one original. Some of the local counties do require two identically signed mylars for recording purposes. Outside of that odd requirement I only create one original, mylar when it for recording purposes and paper copies for ALL other documents.
>
> Not one of them has a wet seal either. I can't remember the last time I had to use my actual stamp, it's so much easier just to add it to your electronic document.
>
> What is the crimping I am reading about? I have never heard of a surveyor crimping anything....maybe a notary stamp but never a surveyor.
Well, you can call one original, and the others something else. But if they're all wet-stamped and signed, and identical, there's no difference. If it's for recording, then, yes, one will be a mylar, and then it'll be obvious that that's the "original".
Some states don't allow a digital (CAD) stamp.
Some states require, or used to require an embosser, similar to a notary.
Agree but begs another question
I agree, signed and sealed. How many prints has anyone signed and stamped in one day? My record is 154. Two subdivisions for final submission to the planning board including ten copies each of final subdivision maps, multi-page road plans and details and erosion and sediment control plans. Three title surveys (six copies each) and two FEMA Elevation Certificates (three each).
