Multiple Originals

"...the request for wet stamps on prints, to show that they are original COPIES but come on ....."

I think that is what they mean when they ask for multiple "originals". At least that's what we've always given them and they have never complained or rejected them.

I hope they don't start. +o(

Any survey I send out gets at least 3 "originals" - that is a paper copy with my original signature. Any plat that I actually sign is an original - and my signature never gets copied by me!

And I put the following note right under my seal:

This is not a true certified copy unless the signature hereon is an original signing.

This is standard practice in my area. You need a copy for recordation, the buyer always wants his own personal copy, the seller and attorneys need record copies for their files. It's just not that unusual of a request.
In 44 uears doing this stuff, I do not remember one survey where we furnished only one copy. The norm is 4 copies and that figure is presumed to grow with the number of individuals involved.
We even have cases where we need 4 paper copies, 1 mylar copy and one additional paper copy with Chartex backing, all bearing live signatures. As long as you get a "premium fee" for each copy, I see no problem. My plotter has probably brought in more money than my average field crew.
BUT, here's the deal, they need to tell you all of that right up front so you can figure in the additional costs. Woe be unto the client that has one of those "Oh, by the way....." moments when it comes to additional copies. That clown is going to pay out the yingyang for those copies. Just the way it is.

Five is my standard number. Sometimes a few more when there are several entities involved.

Multiple originals seems like an oxymoron; but as far as copies go, I give them what gets me paid. They can call them originals, copies, or whatever.

For as long as I can remember the standard has been 5 signed and crimp sealed of the plat and of each property description.

After that it is considered another survey of the same property.

I'm not understanding the difference between original and copy in this context. In my office, everything comes out of the same printers, and everything gets a wet signature and seal except the digital deliverables (DWG or PDF).

What is it that distinguishes an original from a copy in your practice?

An original to me is the plan that gets recorded at the Registry of Deeds, or resides in my plan drawer for infinity.

I have NO problem providing wet stamp copies, but multiple originals is an oxymoron!!! People just don't get it! LOL

I send out 5 signed and sealed 'originals' of every drawing. The Bank, Buyer, Title Company, and Underwriter all want an original if the survey is being prepared for a transaction.

Try to change their vocabulary. I always refer to my final product, in phone conversations and emails, as "signed and sealed copies".

I should have mentioned that my originals are on mylar.....do y'all send out mylar plots as originals??

I haven't been asked for anything on mylar in 10 years.

No ... I've never done anything on Mylar. Is that a requirement for your state? I'm fairly certain in bank/realtor/title company lingo, "original" and "sealed" mean the same thing.

New category suggestion to replace politics and religion 😉

Every time I read these discussions about "originals vs copies" or "wet seals vs crimp seals" it reminds me of that scene in OPM (Other Peoples' Money) where Danny DeVido give his speech about the last buggy whip manufacturer to go out of business. They had to be the best "go'dam buggy whip makers in the business."

For a supposedly cutting-edge, technologically-advanced profession, we have some very arcane understandings that haven't kept up with either the law or technology.

I posted a thread discussing the legal perspective on the [msg=160677]"originals vs copies"[/msg] topic which lays out the rules of evidence on the subject. They are the rules that the court will apply when reviewing your survey. They're the only rules we need to know when it comes to the subject. What I or any one else "thinks" is irrelevant as it comes down to simple semantics.

Basically, the "original" used to mean (I suppose to some it still means) the hand-drawn mylar that was used to produce "copies" that were signed and wet-sealed or crimp-sealed and provided to the client in whatever number required. Thinking old-school, that would be the bluelines you ran from the mylar.

Well, the technology has changed and the laws have changed. We don't use bluelines and mylars are being phased out (all too slowly) in favor of electronic or paper documents. The current laws provide you with the best protection if you provide the original, digitally-signed document directly to your client. Provide that document in a format that can be easily reproduced on any medium. Preferably you should use the industry standard of .pdf format.

They can be easily transmitted electronically and by so doing, gives you the greatest protection from fraud and forgery known under federal, state, and international Uniform Electronic Transaction Act (UETA). Besides, it beats snail-mail or even registered mail any day of the week (which is practically required for delivery of hard-copy products). By producing hard-copies with raised seals, you have little protection from fraud or forgery and you have no way of keeping up in the 21st century (think buggy whips).

JBS

Multiple Originals>MA Requirements

MA Plan Requirements for the Registry of Deeds< We're permitted to use linen, too, if we can find it! Last time I ordered it I had to order it from Jolly ol' England...

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Plan Regulations

AMENDMENTS UNDER THE GENERAL LAWS, CHAPTER 36, SECTION 13A, APPROVED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ARE EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 1976 AND AMENDED JANUARY 7, 1988.

Plan sizes shall be a minimum of eight and one-half inches by eleven inches (8 1/2" x 11") and a maximum of twenty-four inches by thirty-six inches (24" x 36").
Plans being presented for recording shall be on linen or polyester film, single matte with a thickness of .003 mils, and must have an opacity so as to allow consistent diazo and microfilm reproduction.
All plans shall be prepared using a compatible ink with excellent cohesiveness which will produce a permanent bond and result in a plan with long term durability.
Linen or polyester reproductions shall be accepted for recording provided they contain original signatures and comply with the other requirements for the recording of plans.
Each plan shall have three-quarter inch (3/4") borders.
The minimum letter size on plans presented for recording shall be one-eighth inch (1/8") if free hand lettering is used and one-tenth inch (1/10") if lettering guides are used.
Each plan presented for recording shall include a graphic scale.
Each plan shall have an area reserved to receive planning board recitation or contain a surveyors certification as per Chapter 380, Acts of 1966.
Each plan shall have a three and one-half inch (3 1/2") square reserved for Registry use.
Each plan must contain a certification clause signed by the preparer stating that he/she has conformed with the rules and regulations of the Registers of Deeds in preparing the plan.

Multiple Originals>MA Requirements

> MA Plan Requirements for the Registry of Deeds< We're permitted to use linen, too, if we can find it! Last time I ordered it I had to order it from Jolly ol' England...
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Plan Regulations
>
> AMENDMENTS UNDER THE GENERAL LAWS, CHAPTER 36, SECTION 13A, APPROVED BY THE ATTORNEY GENERAL ARE EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 1976 AND AMENDED JANUARY 7, 1988.
>
> Plan sizes shall be a minimum of eight and one-half inches by eleven inches (8 1/2" x 11") and a maximum of twenty-four inches by thirty-six inches (24" x 36").
> Plans being presented for recording shall be on linen or polyester film, single matte with a thickness of .003 mils, and must have an opacity so as to allow consistent diazo and microfilm reproduction.
> All plans shall be prepared using a compatible ink with excellent cohesiveness which will produce a permanent bond and result in a plan with long term durability.
> Linen or polyester reproductions shall be accepted for recording provided they contain original signatures and comply with the other requirements for the recording of plans.
> Each plan shall have three-quarter inch (3/4") borders.
> The minimum letter size on plans presented for recording shall be one-eighth inch (1/8") if free hand lettering is used and one-tenth inch (1/10") if lettering guides are used.
> Each plan presented for recording shall include a graphic scale.
> Each plan shall have an area reserved to receive planning board recitation or contain a surveyors certification as per Chapter 380, Acts of 1966.
> Each plan shall have a three and one-half inch (3 1/2") square reserved for Registry use.
> Each plan must contain a certification clause signed by the preparer stating that he/she has conformed with the rules and regulations of the Registers of Deeds in preparing the plan.

Is the MA legislature still requiring minimum 3/8" diameter buggy whips, too?

Notice the dates referenced by these pieces of legislation. They range from 24 to 45 years old. A lot of technology has happened in that time. Rather than thinking that it'll be easier to make your own linen when the supply runs out, it might be time for the state surveyor association (the ones making the plats) to consider updating the laws regulating the profession.

Maine's legislature passed UETA in 1999. It's about time for the surveying profession to take advantage of the protections extended under those laws. You won't do it by continuing to make buggy whips.

JBS

Multiple Originals>MA Land Court>JBS

HaHa John, you're a funny guy. and yes we have found that the 3/8" buggy whip to be far superior to any other size.

Regardless of when the regulations were created that is the law that we live with and I find it fairly easy to comply. It wasn't that long ago that ll Land Court plans had to be done on linen. Now they will accept a mylar photo generated color copy.

I don't see that much of a problem with creating originals for recording on mylar, or as in the case of most ALTA's on mylar and stored in the drawer..

Don

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2.1.5. DRAFTING REQUIREMENTS FOR ALL PLANS
2.1.5.1.Media. Every plan presented pursuant to these instructions shall be on non-erasable media of durable material (anticipated life span exceeding 100 years under normal storage conditions) that readily accepts permanent black ink and upon which alterations of the plan are readily discernable. Such media must be widely available in roll stock and 24 inch by 36 inch sheet formats. In addition, if a DXF file, DWG drawing, PDF file or some other computer digital format approved by the Chief Surveyor is available, it should accompany the plan for filing. The Survey Division should be consulted relative to choice of media.

While I fully agree with you, currently the New Jersey State Board of Professional Engineers and Land Surveyors does not.

N.J.A.C. 13:40-8.1 Sealing documents

(a) All sealing of documents shall be done with an impression-
type seal, the design of which shall be authorized by
the Board and shall contain the name and license number of
the professional engineer or professional land surveyor and
the legend "Licensed Professional Engineer," "Licensed Land
Surveyor" or "Licensed Professional Engineer and Land Surveyor,"
as the case may be. Alternatives, such as digital seals
or rubber stamp facsimiles of the seal shall not be permitted.

There has been a push to get them to allow digital seals but so far they have said no.