Like New Leica TCRP1201+ R1000 vs. Brand New TS15P R1000 5"

Hello amdomag,

We own 2 TCRP+ instruments, one with an RX controller and the other being run by a CS15 VIVA controller. I have also used a few different TS15i instruments so I'm talking from my own experiences.

It depends on what you value. Smartwork VIVA running on a CS or TS is much faster than smartworx running on a TCRP or RX. The VIVA interface is nicer and faster by a comfortable margin. Also parts will be around for the VIVA for a lot longer. The 1200 is either near the planned EOL date, or at it, which means spare parts are not being made. It's existing inventory and nothing else.

If you value accuracy then go for the TCRP+. Exactly the same EDM specs but will kill the 5" TS15P in angle accuracy. My testing suggests strongly the 5" spec is inbuilt. You can't bank on getting a 'special' 5" that actually comes out as a 2" or something. It's 5" all day long.

There are some more minor differences like slightly improved motors or motor controller or whatever, which means prism searching is a bit faster and the fine tangent movement is a bit smoother. The optics seemed a bit cleaner on the last TS15 I used. Whether that was an age thing or not I do not know. Any other differences didn't make enough of an impact on my experience to notice.

Is it worth investing the $5000 difference in your opinion? My work generally does not require the 1" accuracy.

The TS15P R1000 5" only offers the standard SmartWorx Viva applications while the TCRP 1201+ R1000 has the onboard SmartWorx v8.71 applications as shown in the attachment.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Arnel

> The TS15P R1000 5" only offers the standard SmartWorx Viva applications while the TCRP 1201+ R1000 has the onboard SmartWorx v8.71 applications as shown in the attachment.

Not helpful to your immediate decision, but I'm always surprised at the way Leica charges separately for software functions that are basic to everyday data collection activities.

"Oh, you want to turn sets of angles with your total station? What a novel idea! Well, we just happen to have a premium application, developed at great expense by our top-flight team of Swiss programmers -- yes, the very ones to whom the term 'intuitive user interface' is a sacred cow (or is that sacrificial lamb? I can never remember!) -- that we can install for you at a very nominal fee in the low-to-mid two figures, plus tax, of course. And, should you require distance measurement at some point during the life of your instrument, we'd by happy to install -- at a very reasonable cost somewhat lower than the price of the instrument itself -- some very useful applications to facilitate that, as well!"

Hello Arnel,

The survey plus(?) software package gives you half of those anyway for ~$700 or about $300 just for reference line which is the most useful of those. So, for me, the software isn't a deal breaker.

If you intend on keeping the instrument for 7yrs+ or so, your extra $5000 is just buying you a faster interface and a better chance that parts are available in 7 years time. That's it really. It's not buying you any more capability that's going to make your business better. Think of the $5000 as parts availability insurance only.

I'm an accuracy junkie so I'd chance the TCRP1201+, especially if the VIVA doesn't come with a remote controller which will be $5000+ more again. We do a lot of robotic work.

You weren't clear about whether the VIVA was a robotic kit or not?

Sorry for not making everything clear. Yes, my intention is for a full robotic setup.

The TCRP1201+ R1000 (equipped with RH1200) with onboard SmartWorx applications previously mentioned is offered only as a head unit. I still need to buy the rover end with two prefered possibilities:

1. Leica CS15 + CS Smartworx Viva License + CRT16 + RH16 + 360deg Prism
2. Carlson Mini2 + Parani LR BT Module + SurvCE + 360deg Prism

The TS15P R1000 5" is also offered as a head unit. Need to be purchased are CS15, CS SmartWorx License, CRT16, and 360deg prism.

Thank you guys.

Arnel

There is a third option which you might consider which is finding a second hand RX1250T which will communicate with the RH1200. Here in Australia our Leica distributors have trade-in equipment lists where good bargains can be had if it's not an in-demand item. I'd be surprised if you couldn't find something where you are.

That said, If both are controlled by a CS15 meaning no difference in interface, I'd personally go with the 1" instrument, purely to satisfy my accuracy fetish. But pay the extra $5000 if you are concerned about future parts availability.

And another thing. The software licences on the TCRP1201+ will only work if the CS15 unit is operating in 'terminal' mode. In this mode your CS15 will just mirror the display on the TCRP1201+ (not VIVA smartworx). In this 'terminal' configuration the 'brains' and storage are at the instrument and the extra speed of the CS15 does not help. In 'robotic' mode the 'brains' are in the CS15 and this is much more pleasant and faster, but your software licences wont work. You'll probably need to buy the licences again if you wish to operate these programs on the CS15.

Does it mean all of the onboard application licenses in the TCRP1201+ are carried over into RX1250T in full robotic mode without paying a single license in the data controller?

Thank you so much for helping me choose the best option.

Regards,
Arnel

> Does it mean all of the onboard application licenses in the TCRP1201+ are carried over into RX1250T in full robotic mode without paying a single license in the data controller?
>
> Thank you so much for helping me choose the best option.
>
> Regards,
> Arnel

I should clarify that in both the robot and terminal configuration modes the RX remote control unit still allows you to operate as a 1-man setup. Your controller still remotely tells your TCRP what to do in both cases. It mostly just changes which end the data is stored at.

Apparently you can temporarily transfer a licence from TCRP to RX if you wish to go 'robot' and make the 'brains' and storage at the RX end, but I've never needed to do it, and don't know how. The terminal configuration works just fine for our 1-man surveying. I've got no idea if you can temporarily transfer a TCRP licence to a VIVA controller though. You'd need to ask a (knowledgeable) leica support person about that. Using the VIVA in terminal mode will allow you to use the TCRP program licences but it won't be the fast and pretty VIVA interface.

I'm really hoping I haven't confused the issue by mentioning the two modes. It's mostly a distinction with very little difference when talking about a RX to TCRP pairing.

Conrad, I do like the way you use words.

Parts availability insurance. Bingo.

Accuracy fetish. Well put.

For this dumb old dirt surveyor, I have been contemplating a 1" v 5" robot. To my simple mind, I won't see 0.01' in the 5" angle until I am over 400' away from the gun. What am I missing?

Thank you for the input..

Regards.

> Conrad, I do like the way you use words.
>
> Parts availability insurance. Bingo.
>
> Accuracy fetish. Well put.
>
> For this dumb old dirt surveyor, I have been contemplating a 1" v 5" robot. To my simple mind, I won't see 0.01' in the 5" angle until I am over 400' away from the gun. What am I missing?

Hello Brad,

What you're missing, or may not know is how a 5" TS may be made so by your manufacturer. That is, how the errors are distributed and when and how they manifest.

After interrogating the snot out of our 5" instruments to work out the errors I now understand that from day to day, on a site, when attempting to stake out a point with a random backsight setting, my points will lay anywhere on an arc of 8mm in length at 100m; If I arrive on site and set up on A, backsight B and attempt to lay out C, the position I come up with for C will show a potential spread of up to 8mm from day to day, depending on how the circle is orientated. It's still statistically a 5" instrument but that's a 16" edge-to-edge maximum difference.

Thanks Conrad, that is interesting. So then, my math says that I should not expect better than 0.03' repeatability of location per roughly 328' for a 5" gun?

> Thanks Conrad, that is interesting. So then, my math says that I should not expect better than 0.03' repeatability of location per roughly 328' for a 5" gun?

Well it still depends on how the manufacturer makes your 5" TS and what confidence interval that 5" is for.

A simple test procedure would be to set up a station A, a backsight B and sight a few targets around the horizon. Loosen the instrument tribrach and turn it 5* or so, recenter and repeat the procedure. Do this many times and note the difference in the observed angles to your targets depending on how the circle is orientated. This will give you some idea of how large the 'errors' may be and where they appear.

Without testing we're just making assumptions about what a 5" instrument means based on some (probably incorrect) notion about distribution of random errors and confidence intervals.

Loosen the instrument tribrach and turn it 5* or so, recenter and repeat the procedure.

Conrad, when you do the above do you reset the horizontal to zero on the backsight, or is the whole point that you don't?
Thanks

> Loosen the instrument tribrach and turn it 5* or so, recenter and repeat the procedure.
>
> Conrad, when you do the above do you reset the horizontal to zero on the backsight, or is the whole point that you don't?
> Thanks

Hello Colin,

For this test I would reset the zero because you can just log the directions to the same targets and build an immediate idea of how much the readings vary. I could do this test with my 5" instrument (measure the angle B-A-C) and if I rotated my instrument by 22* and read the angle again I could get a difference of up to 16" from one reading to the next on the worst part of the circle. That's the absolute maximum 'error' on the circle though. It could read 0" difference on another part, but with enough angles and enough targets you may eventually tease out the patterns. It took me a while but I know where they are now and what form they take on our instruments.

Ok, thanks - I guess, in my head, I was imagining that re-setting to zero would re-set the circle back to the same position, (as if zero is a certain point on the circle) so you would be reusing the same part of the circle, but I guess it doesn't work that way.

> Ok, thanks - I guess, in my head, I was imagining that re-setting to zero would re-set the circle back to the same position, (as if zero is a certain point on the circle) so you would be reusing the same part of the circle, but I guess it doesn't work that way.

Well, I suppose we should clarify. In our TCRP1205+ instruments the circle is firmly fixed in the instrument. It is not a repeating total station so you can't wind up the angles. So in our instrument 'Zero' is just a digital thing. You must physically re-orient the bottom part of the TS in order to take samples from a different part of the circle.

If you have a repeating total station then you don't have to turn the tribrach on the tripod head. Just un-clamp the bottom circle, turn it some amount, re-clamp and then set the zero to the backsight again.

Arnel,

GeoCom is a $950 option for the 1200 and $750 for the TS15. If you are planning on using anything other than a Leica data collector you will need to add the $750 to the price of the TS15.

GeoCom license is already onboard the TCRP1201+. I am not sure if it is also needed in the data collector for a full robotic setup.