found this last evening while doing recon on a job up the street.?ÿ to preface: i haven't shot anything yet so i don't know... but it immediately occurred to me to be a teaching moment (if only i'd had some young'in field hand around).
there's math right and there's this kind of right.?ÿ sometimes they're the same thing, a lot of times they're not.
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What do it all mean ?
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... there's a copperhead in the picture somewhere .. ????ÿ ?????ÿ
it means at least 4 other surveyors between me and the guy who set it have shot it and- presumably- honored it.?ÿ this is at or near a corner of 3 different tracts.?ÿ finding this much flagging sent me looking at additional corners for each of the three, and the various amounts and colors of flagging at those other corners told me this one was at least found and located by different people doing each of the 3 tracts.?ÿ the next step was looking at conveyances, which indicates each of the three tracts has been conveyed 2-3 times in the past decade.?ÿ?ÿ
in short- it means this may or may not be math right, but it's informing a whole bunch of consensus in this particular area.?ÿ further homework (and, obviously, shooting it in the first place) will lead to whatever the answer is, but it just instantly seemed like a good lesson for the less initiated.?ÿ kind of like how you'd show some greenhorn a pincushion and say "don't ever do that."
(ex post facto disclaimer: that rod was set by my buddy and old boss.?ÿ i sent him the pic and he replied with "oh great."?ÿ lmao.?ÿ told him to relax, i'm not looking to out-math him.)
ah, I see what you're saying.?ÿ I don't mean to come across as some kind of expert on this or any thing but, isn't there usually a few more numbers, or letters, on those caps ?
i was trained to never flag anything that we hadn't accepted as a legitmate corner, and was even given a few pages out of the PLSC monthly newsletter explaining why. I might flag it if I or another team member was heading out potentially to adjacent work, in close chronological sequence, especially if the flagging was really old and faded.
Found several monuments on a tract that I retraced the boundary of the other day. Most of them had several generations of ribbon and those buried along the street's right of way even red mechanics' cloth rags sort of buried from the ground down to their tops almost a foot below grade (2" & 3" EIP's from many decades ago). I felt much better about them having been formerly flagged so many times by various others so I tied new ribbon myself to those that appeared to fit. One supposed "existing concrete monument" had been completely shattered/destroyed by some farm equipment I believe (small bits of concrete throughout the general area) but another surveyor had more recently replaced it with a new #5 rebar that had new flagging - however he had no newly recorded deed or map out to confirm that corner yet & I know it's been several months since he was last there according to both property owners involved. I know the county is still promptly uploading maps & deeds despite COVID so I really don't understand the delay in at least recording the survey??ÿ
Interesting.?ÿ So did you use that monument or are you waiting for the survey to be recorded?
Really?
I flag so it can be found again.?ÿ And in winter, run flagging up 3' to the nearest tree/post/sign, etc
The article explained that in court cases where the client noticed and observed the flagging they were relying upon that as evidence of their boundary and the decision determined that you shouldn't flag a pin at a potential boundary unless you're willing to put that in court.
And I also did similar when we dug up section corners we would leave lots of the previous flagging and even at our own from the PIN to the top of the hole for the next person who might be digging it up.
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I've no idea whether that's true, but find it hard to believe that we could be liable for flagging existing pipes.?ÿ
But then again, I've been reluctant to erase in field books for the fear of it being an issue if ever called into court.?ÿ Is that real or just surveyor myth??ÿ Been surveying 30 years, and (luckily) don't know.
I'll look for the article.
Unfortunately ignorance of the law is no defense, esp with upset land owners with opinions and money to burn.
I think they used red rags back before plastic flagging.?ÿ
At least that's what was tied to the pipes my brother and I dug up that were randomly in the woods behind our house when we were kids.
So I have quite a bit of familiarity with the parcel. Both property owners agreed that was the corner & all previously recorded maps & deed descriptions for both parcels agree with it. So I??m holding it. I think the delay in the survey might be due to the survey being for development?ÿ
That article could have just read "PSA: Find and Flag operations are in violation of current statutes and do not protect the public and you will probably (justifiably) lose your license if you conduct them. That is all."
I don't think that the article is saying that the presence of F&F surveyors precludes a competent surveyor from flagging up a monument that might later be rejected. Flagging is a pretty tenuous thing to rely upon. Considering the amount of survey flagging that is used for things other than survey monuments, for a landowner to rely upon flagging without a survey to go with it is pretty sketchy.
And if surveyors are relying upon flagging rather than a record of survey or called-for monument in a description...oof. I would never assume that a monument was held simply because it has been flagged. Additional evidence is required.
Agreed. If a client hires a surveyor to find and flag their corners, and the surveyor flags a found monument, the client will naturally believe that the monument is their corner. The surveyor must be aware of that and be thoughtful about what he flags, and also his other life & career choices.
On the other hand, just flagging found monuments in the course of survey work shouldn't necessarily mean anything special to anybody. And finding multiple wraps of old flagging on an iron may merely mean the monument has been an easy find. Low hanging fruit, as it were.?ÿ ?ÿ
Agreed. We were just given the article to validate why we didn't find and flag anything we hadn't accepted.
Remember, newbie field people, not surveyors making field decisions without enough knowledge or training in lots of cases.
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I think initial premise of the thread is wrong. To me all the ribbon just indicates it was tied (located for you younger folk). One would have to inspect the various maps to see if it was held. Wouldn't surprise me if on those maps it says something like?ÿ CIRF .02 n .03 w
Threads on old flagging
https://surveyorconnect.com/community/surveying-geomatics/history-of-flagging-material/
https://surveyorconnect.com/community/education-training/do-you-remember/
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