OK guys I am wondering if a surveyor can write a legal description? I have heard from numerous Surveyors that a PLS can write a legal description. I had some tell me a PLS can not make a description legal so we cant legally write a legal description just a property description. What do you think?
I have written my own deeds several times and done a few for friends and I have no license at all.
according to the ACSM's "definitions of surveying and associated terms", a legal description is described as "a description recognized by law which definitely locates property by reference to government surveys, coordinate systems or recorded maps; a description which is sufficient to locate the property without oral testimony"
Who better to write a legal description than a surveyor. a lawyer? please.
Surveyors can and have for years been writLegal Descriptions
Surveyors can and have for years been writing descriptions, They are just that until used in a Document of some kind and Recorded, then they become part of a Legal Document. Kind of like a caterpillar morphing into a butterfly. Surveyors should not be writing the Deed Documents, only the description used in it. Guess a non recorded description could gain legal status by its use by others relying on it. This thing about labeling a description is really a waste of time. Call them a legal description when you write them or call it something else, how it is used and what for creates status, just like any monument you set on a property line, that monument represents only your opinion until it is relied on by those owners who have the legal right to accept or reject its position as marking the common boundary of their lands.
jud
Here in my part of the world, anyone can write a legal description. Public officials do it all of the time. Realtors have made their attempts at it, too!
But if you are a licensed surveyor, you are the only one required to sign and stamp the description, nobody else is required to.
> OK guys I am wondering if a surveyor can write a legal description? I have heard from numerous Surveyors that a PLS can write a legal description. I had some tell me a PLS can not make a description legal so we cant legally write a legal description just a property description. What do you think?
I've heard this same thing on several occasions, but have never received any definite feedback.
I think we are going to need some clarification and definitions first.
What exactly do you mean by "legal description"? What is the difference between a "legal description" and a "property description"? What is entailed in writing a "legal description"? What makes a description "legal"? What makes a description "illegal"? Where are the prohibitions from writing a "legal description"? Can anyone cite any case law or references?
Dog gone it Chevis, you've stepped in it now. 😉
There is a long running debate here about the difference between a "Legal" description and a "Property" description.
My opinion is there is no difference. Those who want to play games with semantics will offer a different opinion.
As evidence to support my position I note that the preeminent book on the topic is called Writing Legal Descriptions by Wattles.
I write legal descriptions that are sometimes used in deeds. I insist on writing the descriptions from my work. It never made any sense to me to have anyone but me prepare the description. Have seen far too many descriptions screwed up by the attorneys to leave my clients at their mercy.
Have a great week.
Larry P
Oh and fyi, here in North Carolina anyone can write the description. Only the Grantor or an attorney is supposed to prepare a deed. But you should know that there are some places (Missouri comes to mind) that require the description be written by a PLS.
:good:
We had a question on the test about this. I took your advice Larry.
>I had some tell me a PLS can not make a description legal so we cant legally write a legal description just a property description. What do you think?
I think by that line of convoluted logic, if a surveyor penned "property description" can not be legal, then it must be illegal.
Webster's online has eight different definitions for the word "legal" (not including 8.5" × 14"); therefore to me this discussion (which comes up every few months) ends up with one group using the definition "recognized or made effective by a court of law" arguing that we can't write "legal" descriptions with another faction using the definition "conforming to or permitted by law or established rules" arguing that we can.
dunno, Brian..
In my own personal venacular I don't consider it a "legal" description unless it's on an instrument of record. I just call everything else a "property" description.
Haven't ever really seen any kind of distinction between them in writing. I guess they're probably interchangable.
FWIW: Here in Oklahoma apparently any club-footed hunchbacked imbecile can pen a description. That includes me, most surveyors and all attornies.;-)
At least the Idaho courts don't seem to have a problem with using "legal description" and "description" interchangably.
I write Property Boundary Descriptions.
I write (as far as I know) descriptions, boundary descriptions, property descriptions, property boundary descriptions, legal descriptions, all being the same animal by different names. Well, at least until I learn the differences, if there are differences.
I've been reading many Idaho cases today, and have yet to find the court making any distinction. I really would like to read any authoritative source defining the differences as I dislike being any more uninformed than usual.
> I write Property Boundary Descriptions.
Jim, you know I like you man. Can you explain how what you do differs from what Gurdon Wattles was doing when he wrote "Writing Legal Descriptions"?
Larry P
Here is the semantical difference as I see it. If I own a property, the "legal description" of that property is the description that is on the deed. It is the description of what I purchased and is recorded in the court house.
I might write a description of a property I surveyed and I might put it on my survey plat. But it is just that, it is a description, and does not become the legal description of that property unless it becomes a part of the deed.
What makes it "legal"? In my mind it has nothing to do with whether a lawyer wrote it or not, it has to do if it is the description used on a deed.
An analogy might be in a contract, for instance: If I write a contract for you to refinish my bathroom, the legal contract is the one we both signed and agreed to. If you write a subsequent contract that doesn't get signed by the other party, is it the contract that is binding between us?
can I, and have I written legal descriptions? Yes. And I call them legal descriptions often, but they aren't really, unless that is the description used when the land is transferred.
Someone on here a few days ago promoted avoiding the term "property" as property includes physical objects and other things besides a chunk of real estate.
> Someone on here a few days ago promoted avoiding the term "property" as property includes physical objects and other things besides a chunk of real estate.
I thought they were alluding to "personal" property; and everyone knows that personal property is dynamic, even expert measurers.....;-)
Larry
Well, hopefully I am doing things exactly like Gurdon did them, as I view that book to be the Bible of description writing, and I endeavour to emulate him. Problem is, I have never understood what "legal" means in this context. "Legal" means "in conformance with the law", but my state has no laws concerning who can write property descriptions. The only law we have is that if a licensed Land Surveyor writes on he has to seal it. A "Property Boundary" is the limits of land holdings described by linear measurements of the borders, and that is what I feel I am writing...