Either way works for me. What gripes me are the deeds that Commence...to the point of beginning. The words "point of beginning" having not previously been cited in the description.
The only thing that caught my attention in you description was the call for a line being parallel to another line.?ÿ ?ÿI was taught lines are parallel with and perpendicular to....
Are there any other states other than Oklahoma that require a "point of commencement AND a point of beginning" in their minimum standards?
Do do here in Mississippi. I don't have a problem with Commencing from,,, to the Point Of Beginning, thence,,,,,.?ÿ
Doesn't a "True" P.O.B. imply that there is a false one?
Me. "What's the difference?"
T.C. Carroll "It's the difference between right and wrong!"
Do do here in Mississippi. I don't have a problem with Commencing from, to the Point Of Beginning, thence...?ÿ
I don't either.?ÿ They all work.
My description template (that I've used for years) has the poc-pot format and I'm?ÿa proverbial "old dog" when it comes to new tricks.?ÿ I prepare in?ÿexcess of about 500 R/W descriptions a year?ÿand I've got my routine down to a science.
But I do from time to time prepare descriptions sans a poc with merely a pob.?ÿ They are usually within a platted lot or block or sometimes the description "apes" the deeded description of the servient estate.
Although OK min. stds. require both, I don't think the board is willing to waste the time in chasing someone down that prepares a description in the manner Norman laid out in this post.?ÿ I applaud?ÿhis brevity.?ÿ We all should strive to make our descriptions more concise with fewer bells and whistles.
Being a natural born contrarian, I find the NC approach of dictating the use of GPS derived coordinates to be repulsive. ?ÿI would tell the soothsayers who dreamed up that defecatory material to take a levitating sexual experience before I would follow their lead.
Are there any other states other than Oklahoma that require a "point of commencement AND a point of beginning" in their minimum standards?
Good heavens, I was only half way joking........?ÿ Really?
I would think if the?ÿlicensing boards spent more time and effort?ÿin making sure that?ÿnewly licensed individuals are?ÿactually competent, they would have to spend less time and effort in writing such ridiculous "minimum" standards.
However, with the current push of licensing as many individuals as possible, I'm not holding my breath.
...
The POC followed by a POB call can be the hallmark of a jackleg surveyor.?ÿ For example:
"Commencing at the SW corner of Section 23, thence S 24?ø30'02"W 2,414.26 feet to the True Point of Beginning, thence [18 B&D calls encompassing 2 acres or so with nary a reference to adjoinders, physical?ÿmonuments or PLSS lines ] back to the POB."
...
Not always the result of a jackleg surveyor.?ÿ I've sent descriptions to attorneys and title companies and then later deen a deed with the description I provided.?ÿ Or, I should say parts of the description I provided.
What ended up in the deeds were what I provided except with all the overcalls omitted, leaving a metes without bounds, dimensions only, description.
It's happened with my descriptions more than once and suspect that at least half of such descriptions appearing on deeds can be attributed to having been edited, if not entirely written by an attorney, a paralegal, or a title officer who thinks they know what's important to have in a description.
Are there any other states other than Oklahoma that require a "point of commencement AND a point of beginning" in their minimum standards?
Say wut? My reading is that both points of commencement and points of beginning need to be referenced to a PLSS or recorded plat corner. But not that there must be both. Although the rule would seem to be written poorly.?ÿ?ÿ
Doesn't a "True" P.O.B. imply that there is a false one?
No.
One use of true is "in accordance with reality or fact. The opposite of true. Another common use is "actual or real".
The sentence "Well Watson, it seems we've stumbled upon?ÿProfessor Moriarty's true intention" doesn't imply that they had an intention in their minds that was false, rather it could mean that his intention was unknown. ?ÿ
Are there any other states other than Oklahoma that require a "point of commencement AND a point of beginning" in their minimum standards?
Say wut? My reading is that both points of commencement and points of beginning need to be referenced to a PLSS or recorded plat corner. But not that there must be both. Although the rule would seem to be written poorly.?ÿ?ÿ
It is indeed written poorly.?ÿ Some interpret it as both poc & pob are required, with the "if applicable" referencing descriptions that begin at, or are referenced to platted corners.?ÿ Others interpret it as you and I read it.?ÿ The discussion comes up every now and again.
All the people I've spoken with that were a part of putting this together agree the wording could have been more concise.?ÿ As I said, the chances of someone getting raked over the coals for describing a parcel with merely a POB described in a unique positional location referenced to an established?ÿland line are pretty slim.?ÿ
Okies have always had trouble with the written language...that probably won't change anytime soon...
?ÿ
Welcome to Kansas. ?ÿCommence at a PLSS corner for a metes and bounds tract in a section. ?ÿThus POC and POB unless the POB is at a PLSS corner.
?ÿ
Boundary Descriptions (AKA: LEGAL DESCRIPTION)
Descriptions defining land boundaries written for conveyance or other purposes shall be complete, providing definite and unequivocal identification of lines and boundaries thereof. The description shall contain dimensions sufficient to enable the description to be plotted and retraced and shall describe the land surveyed by either government lot, aliquot parts, quarter section, section, township, range and county; or by metes and bounds commencing with a corner marked and established in the U.S. Public Land Survey System; or if such land is located in a recorded subdivision or recorded addition thereto, then by the number or other description of that lot, block or subdivision thereof. If the parcel is described by metes and bounds it may be referenced to known lot or block corners in recorded subdivisions or additions.
Aw the good old days:
THIS INDENTURE by and between Buford T. Justice, party of the first part, and Ralph Kramden, party of the second part, that said party of the first part does hereby grant, bargain, sell and convey to the said party of the second part and by these presents does hereby grant, bargain, sell and convey the following lot, piece, parcel, or tract of land located in Montague County, Texas, to wit:
BLACKACRE
Together with any and all tenements, hereditiments, and appurtenances thereunto appertaining.
dont you want the poc to tie down the pob?
then there is the "a distance of" extraneousness.
This bothers me too, it right up there with, "rate of speed", and "PIN number"
?ÿ
Oh wow, the OK minimum standard requiring the PM, Township, Range, Section and?ÿquarter?ÿsection explains some of the serious screw ups I have seen in OK descriptions. That needs to be fixed. Whoever wrote this apparently was not aware that a parcel can be in a section but not in any quarter.?ÿ
On the other hand the point of commencement issue seems clear to me. How do you read that sentence and conclude a point of commencement is required??ÿ
?ÿ
Oh wow, the OK minimum standard requiring the PM, Township, Range, Section and?ÿquarter?ÿsection explains some of the serious screw ups I have seen in OK descriptions. That needs to be fixed. Whoever wrote this apparently was not aware that a parcel can be in a section but not in any quarter.?ÿ
On the other hand the point of commencement issue seems clear to me. How do you read that sentence and conclude a point of commencement is required??ÿ
I think that Uncle Paden is pulling our legs a little with that POC+POB business. Or he may have had some upstart non-surveyor reviewer read it that way.?ÿ
Oklahoma's PLSS survey is remarkably regular. It was done fairly late in the game, after most of the bugs in the system had been ironed out. And it is flat to rolling grassland terrain for the most part. So if there are any grossly irregular sections at all they aren't common.?ÿ ?ÿ
?ÿ
Oh wow, the OK minimum standard requiring the PM, Township, Range, Section and?ÿquarter?ÿsection explains some of the serious screw ups I have seen in OK descriptions. That needs to be fixed. Whoever wrote this apparently was not aware that a parcel can be in a section but not in any quarter.?ÿ
On the other hand the point of commencement issue seems clear to me. How do you read that sentence and conclude a point of commencement is required??ÿ
I think that Uncle Paden is pulling our legs a little with that POC+POB business. Or he may have had some upstart non-surveyor reviewer read it that way.?ÿ
Oklahoma's PLSS survey is remarkably regular. It was done fairly late in the game, after most of the bugs in the system had been ironed out. And it is flat to rolling grassland terrain for the most part. So if there are any grossly irregular sections at all they aren't common.?ÿ ?ÿ
There are a lot of sections with riparian boundaries, and of course the normal north and west tiers that make it impossible to describe all areas as within "quarters".?ÿ
?ÿ
Oh wow, the OK minimum standard requiring the PM, Township, Range, Section and?ÿquarter?ÿsection explains some of the serious screw ups I have seen in OK descriptions. That needs to be fixed. Whoever wrote this apparently was not aware that a parcel can be in a section but not in any quarter.?ÿ
On the other hand the point of commencement issue seems clear to me. How do you read that sentence and conclude a point of commencement is required??ÿ
I think that Uncle Paden is pulling our legs a little with that POC+POB business. Or he may have had some upstart non-surveyor reviewer read it that way.?ÿ
Oklahoma's PLSS survey is remarkably regular. It was done fairly late in the game, after most of the bugs in the system had been ironed out. And it is flat to rolling grassland terrain for the most part. So if there are any grossly irregular sections at all they aren't common.?ÿ ?ÿ
There are a lot of sections with riparian boundaries, and of course the normal north and west tiers that make it impossible to describe all areas as within "quarters".?ÿ
There are a lot of sections with riparian boundaries, and of course the normal north and west tiers that make it impossible to describe all areas as within "quarters".?ÿ
Sorry, I'm not feeling it.
Government Lots, including those on the north and west tiers, are still properly within quarter sections. 1/16ths? Probably not. But quarters, OK.
I'm not clear on what riparian boundaries have to do with it. Anyway, there are no natural navigable water ways within the state of Oklahoma, and no natural lakes of any size. There are now a number a man-made reservoirs, and they get barges up the Arkansas almost to Tulsa, but that is the result of man-made flood control, a very different thing from a survey perspective.
And regardless, while neither Oregon or Washington have anything like minimum standards governing legal descriptions - which really hasn't been a problem - the standards regarding Records of Survey require referencing the quarter section. Not a problem except in the rare instances such as when you are surveying a whole section and have to reference the survey as being in the NE1/4, NW1/4, SE1/4, & SW1/4 of Section....?ÿ ?ÿIf I were mapping something like one of Kent's 52,000 acre ranches under those rules the sheet heading would fill the whole page.?ÿ
I'll agree just on general principles that the whole thing could just be let alone.?ÿ