"working in a different datum like State Plane Coords,"
I guess I don't understand the reliance on boundary calls, then. Why not just have your client look on GoogleEarth, grab coordinates for the position they like (accuracy then totally unknown), and then just navigate to that position? Expected accuracy of this method could be in the 10's to 100's of feet, but if position is not critical...
Otherwise, you are doing a boundary survey, which seems trivial to the layman, but is quite serious business with truly massive liability consequences.
My client wants to know if I can take this information and figure out approximately where the well stake will be
If you can do this there is no need for the surveyor. I suggest meeting the surveyor on site and as soon as he finishes you begin your work.
"working in a different datum like State Plane Coords,"
>
> Drilldo, some of us here are trying to help. Really. Let me reiterate:
>
> 1) There is nothing about "probably" involved. What is the issue is that by asking and getting good answers, you then think you know. Questions and answers are very justifiable, and good for everybody. But you are dead wrong.
>
> 2) Call your lawyer. If you think somebody signing off on anything is invincible - you are kidding yourself. Your firm is on the hook, especially if an abutting property owner with deeper pockets gets PO'ed.
>
> 3) Waiting is not only an option, it is best served as the only option. You are first man in according to what you say, correct? Why not be the second man in, after they stake it for you? See #2
I know everyone is trying to help and I appreciate it. I really do and I am taking the advice.
As to the liability my contract would only be to do the testing at specified NAD83 coordinates which we can do with great accuracy. They would sign a contract saying they want me to do the work at those coordinates and we would. Again based off the advice given I don't think it is a good idea to do it but if we did the contract would cover the situation.
I would prefer to wait but it is not up to me. Like I said earlier from what we have seen there is not time for us to do our work between when the locations are staked and when construction starts. I need to do my work on an undisturbed site with no one around. Last time we waited for the well to be staked and we got there and there were probably 50 people and all kinds of heavy equipment working on site.
Sounds a bit like a case of the 'cart in front of the horse'. I was going to suggest using protracted coordinates for the rectangular system to derive some ballpark positions, but that is fraught with potential problems, even for a licensed surveyor in your area. Not to mention that actually doing a protraction is beyond the skill set of most lay persons. I have to agree with the other posters that you would be best off working closely with the surveyor, possibly obtaining a GP (geographic position) from them prior to their actual staking the site so that you can get in early enough to get your work done. I really don't see a magic bullet solution from what you describe. Good luck. Cheers! Willy
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
> My client wants to know if I can take this information and figure out approximately where the well stake will be
>
>
> If you can do this there is no need for the surveyor. I suggest meeting the surveyor on site and as soon as he finishes you begin your work.
We will try and figure out something.
There are lots of other details I am leaving out that are not really relavent to the discussion but for lots of reasons it is not easy to do.
First is this area is hundreds of miles from our shop.
2nd is the client wants us to do multiple sites per trip to minimize the mobilization costs. For example go there and do 5 well sites.
3rd we have a ton of other work going on. We are currently working in a different state. We can't drop everything to get there the day the surveyor is there.
Like I said in the other reply I appreciate everyones advice. Based on the replies I don't think it is a good idea to try and do so we are going to look at other options.
Since I originally posted this I have been talking with the surveyor that stakes the wells and they said they have coordinates for most the boundaries in the area because they do a ton of work there. He said if I send him the call information he can likely give me NAD83 coords for the locations.
"working in a different datum like State Plane Coords,"
>
> As to the liability my contract would only be to do the testing at specified NAD83 coordinates which we can do with great accuracy. They would sign a contract saying they want me to do the work at those coordinates and we would. Again based off the advice given I don't think it is a good idea to do it but if we did the contract would cover the situation.
>
I have not done well locations in nearly 30 years. However I would advise you as follows:
- ...Add in your contract that the drilling company will hold you harmless if you get part of your grid on the adjoining property.
- ...Also include that they will pick up any court costs, legal fees and damages to neighboring property resulting from your drilling operation encroaching on neighbors.
I believe they will be a bit reluctant to sign that agreement. Until the surveyor sets a point that meets local drilling set back from property line requirements anything you do may get you into that kind of legal trouble.
The Texas Railroad Commission does not require a surveyor for well location plats in the state of Texas. I recently came across several plats signed by oil company employees and one by a civil engineer based in Midland. I've had a client hand me a hand drawn plat and ask me to stake it based on his sketch.
I recently sent a letter to the manager of the Board of Professional Land Surveying to ask for a clarification of the rules where well location plats are considered a full blown boundary survey if prepared by an RPLS but unregulated if prepared by a civil engineer. Apparently the letter has been referred to full board.
To those who think that properly locating a well inside the correct lease/survey is no big deal, let me know what happens if you stake it on someone else's property.... And the mistake isn't caught for 6 months.... After production starts.
Drilldo, I'm not sure what state your from but oil well layout in Illinois is pretty vague. They still allow engineers to sign the layout sheets. I've done a few but its been several years ago. The requirements for laying them out is pretty vague at best. Based on what I know about them I'd say get the coordinates off Google Earth, better yet let the client get them off Google and then the liability is on them.
I have no idea.
Lol, say no more, I've been out there too!!
Not sure what to think, but those stakes get moved around all the time for so many reasons.
You can not do what they want. Period. Only a licensed surveyor can. Its really that simple.
Well you've probably heard enough, but I will throw in a little bit about this as well. Know that you are getting opinions of guys that have dealt with this sort of thing in the past and who know what kind of real issues it can bring.
As to me, I have retraced a lot of highway rights of way, and some railroad right of way. Those old plans done by engineers, would be based on a highway centerline layout survey where they would look for section and quarter-section corners along the way and side-shoot in the corners they found. Then they would protract in the corners they didn't find. Often times they would write up legal descriptions off of protracted corners as their points of commencement. I have retraced rights of way that might not match the legal descriptions based on the point of commencement by 100' (and more). Protracting in section lines, and coming up with a property off of them can be very far off. Beware, that all of us have probably seen GIS boundaries that are often very far off as well. (albeit also sometimes surprisingly close). But your certainty factor is very weak in this sort of situation.
Writing clever disclaimers is fine and dandy, but when something is found to off, and the you-know-what hits the fan, especially when large amounts of money are involved, no one is safe, and disclaimers often are off the table.
One Would Think In 15 Years Education Might Be Considered
Coordinates are rather straightforward math.
For you to rely on technology and not know what the equipment is doing is dangerous.
How do you carry sufficient insurance to be on such projects as a sub?
Paul in PA
One Would Think In 15 Years Education Might Be Considered
> Coordinates are rather straightforward math.
>
> For you to rely on technology and not know what the equipment is doing is dangerous.
>
> How do you carry sufficient insurance to be on such projects as a sub?
>
> Paul in PA
Where did that come from? For what it is worth I have a lot of education - graduate level in a technical field and I am not a sub on 95% of the stuff I do we run the show. Just because I am not an expert at surveying doesn't mean I am uneducated. I fully understand the math of coordinates. As evidenced by everyone's posts the issues with trying to do this have nothing to do with math.
If your client is electing for such a workflow, I would suggest that he'd create a kml file in Google earth of the proposed locations.
Do not make the call. As others said, you are exposing yourself to a lot of liability, "Drilldo, he picked that location".
Your client is a big outfit with a lot of resources, it can allocate someone to provide you proper instructions on area of tests for each site.
Basically X feet from this section line, y feet from this section line
No problem Drilldo...just ask them for the derivative of the section line coordinates and you don't carry around a crystal ball!! After that it's their problem. Don't let them trick you into trying to figure out what your problem is.
Go forth and pillage.
Pablo B-)
The summer after high school and before college I worked on a drilling rig. The daylight driller was in charge when moving to a new location about every two weeks. The first thing he did was pull up the stake, walk over to the earth pits that had been dug before our arrival, and step off to where HE wanted the hole so that the piping fit.
So the final location was determined by the dirt crew that dug the pits and the length of the pipe dumping the drilling mud into the pit as determined by the driller stepping if off.
James
> Basically X feet from this section line, y feet from this section line
>
> No problem Drilldo...just ask them for the derivative of the section line coordinates and you don't carry around a crystal ball!! After that it's their problem. Don't let them trick you into trying to figure out what your problem is.
>
> Go forth and pillage.
>
> Pablo B-)
Good one Pablo. Every once in a while us surveyors get to deal with somebody who knows how to measure things, but has absolutely no clue on the ramifications. They think it's "easy".
I know one thing, if I was a well guy setting up a $200,000 operation - I'd want somebody else to stake that location. Disclaimer, missclaimer, youclaimher... don't matter. They never hold up in court with all that money involved, only the lawyers get rich.
I say wait until the surveyor takes on the liability. Why any drill guy would do it on his own is beyond my comprehension. All the Q & A's on this board will not make a person smart. May learn a thing or three, but still not smart enough. Just like our total station, GPS, shovel & pick, machete, 6 lb hammer - just a tool in the truck.
I know one thing, if I was a well guy setting up a $200,000 operation
Probably need two more zeros;-)
>
> I know one thing, if I was a well guy setting up a $200,000 operation - I'd want somebody else to stake that location. Disclaimer, missclaimer, youclaimher... don't matter. They never hold up in court with all that money involved, only the lawyers get rich.
>
> I say wait until the surveyor takes on the liability. Why any drill guy would do it on his own is beyond my comprehension. All the Q & A's on this board will not make a person smart. May learn a thing or three, but still not smart enough. Just like our total station, GPS, shovel & pick, machete, 6 lb hammer - just a tool in the truck.
Just to make sure it is clear I am not drilling the oil wells. That would be crazy and likely illegal to position a stake myself and do that. What I am doing is testing to determine the stability of the ground where they set the rig. Evidently the rigs are so massive they have had problems setting them up on ground that is not solid. Basically I go on site with 3 or 4 guys and we do the testing and it takes about 8 hours and you would have difficulty even knowing I had been there after we were done. We are not putting anythin permanent and do no major damage. I provide coordinates of where I did my test.
When the company comes to drill the oil well they are going to look at the coordinates where they are planning on drilling and then find that location from my test data and see what was there. Obviously if the well stake does not fall with in my test grid we screwed up but the only real consequence is I lost 8 hours of work unless I was so far off I got on a neighbors property and was trespassing.
Again we are going to try a different method of finding these locations based on the comments from everyone but I get the impression that some on here thought I was planning on drilling an oil well or something major like that based of the the approximation location.
This is going to end poorly I feel.