"we're taking on liability for things that the real law professionals aren't, and somehow it's good"
Actually we're selling liability, that's part of our business. The problem is when surveyors sell it for pennies on the dollar. ?ÿ
In my world, we should be responsible/liable for the location of what is contained in the deed.?ÿ We should still have to research back the way we currently do to discover scrivener's errors, senior rights, and other location errors and issues.
But I think that someone else should be on the hook for items not contained in or referred to in the current deed that are title issues.?ÿ We shouldn't be responsible for missing easements, agreements, or some prior minor conveyance from 80 years ago, that doesn't appear on the tax maps, but still exists.
I'm one of the few who would like to take a step back and become looked upon as more of a trade.?ÿ?ÿ Our professional status has us holding the water of responsibility and liability not incurred by the real professionals.
Someone asks you to survey their land.?ÿ Their current deed may have a description from the 1800's that has survived over 100 years and up to 20 transactions/conveyances.?ÿ There could be easements, out-lots, restrictions, etc., that aren't listed in this current legal document.?ÿ And somehow we're the ones on the hook for anything missed.?ÿ Not the lawyers or realtors, who've made more money than we do with each transaction, and have simply copied the prior descriptions and covered their asses with, "subject to all easements, restrictions, prior conveyances,......"
Most of us didn't go to law school, and it's a bit of an absurd joke on us, that we're taking on liability for things that the real law professionals aren't, and somehow it's good, because we're a lofty profession, not a lowly trade.
Sorry for the slightly off-topic rant.
You can already do that.?ÿ ?ÿ
Based on the majority of the surveys I see, we're professionals because we say we are. If we were the professionals we purport to be and making boundary decisions based on learned professional analysis, a cogent understanding of relevant case law, a?ÿprofessional understanding of historic survey methods and the inherent, but expected/acceptable errors involved with those methods, and realistic estimates of the accuracy of our own equipment- there'd be about 50% fewer property pins being set, and the paper pin cushion would be a relic of darker times. What we see - based on what is being filed, is a product that theoretically meets the clients needs, barely meets minimum regulatory standards, apparently allows?ÿthe licensee to get paid and doesn't cause enough uproar to get someone pissed off enough to file suit...?ÿthat barely passes as a tradesman...
Yes I am being a AZZhole, but I looked at a survey yesterday where a surveyor rejected the nw1/16th corner?ÿ (set in 1993)- because he didn't understand that when someone changed out the stone at the NW section corner for a 2" AC, ?ÿit didn't change the position of the 1/16th and he didn't need to re-breakdown the section and call the 1/16th off by s49^21'45"W 0.17', or the one a couple weeks ago where the guy licensed less than 1 year rejected 80% of the monuments along a stretch of right of way, because "Based on his experience, they were outside his tolerances"..... At least if we?ÿcalled ourselves a trade, the crew could get union scale......
I looked at a survey yesterday where a surveyor rejected the nw1/16th corner?ÿ (set in 1993)- because he didn't understand that when someone changed out the stone at the NW section corner for a 2" AC, ?ÿit didn't change the position of the 1/16th and he didn't need to re-breakdown the section and call the 1/16th off by s49^21'45"W 0.17', or the one a couple weeks ago where the guy licensed less than 1 year rejected 80% of the monuments along a stretch of right of way, because "Based on his experience, they were outside his tolerances"..... At least if we?ÿcalled ourselves a trade, the crew could get union scale......
Wow!! The right-of-way is an old sad common story, but the 1/16th?
What a waste of time, someone paid for that cluster duck?
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Based on the majority of the surveys I see, we're professionals because we say we are. If we were the professionals we purport to be and making boundary decisions based on learned professional analysis, a cogent understanding of relevant case law, a?ÿprofessional understanding of historic survey methods and the inherent, but expected/acceptable errors involved with those methods, and realistic estimates of the accuracy of our own equipment- there'd be about 50% fewer property pins being set, and the paper pin cushion would be a relic of darker times. What we see - based on what is being filed, is a product that theoretically meets the clients needs, barely meets minimum regulatory standards, apparently allows?ÿthe licensee to get paid and doesn't cause enough uproar to get someone pissed off enough to file suit...?ÿthat barely passes as a tradesman...
Yes I am being a AZZhole, but I looked at a survey yesterday where a surveyor rejected the nw1/16th corner?ÿ (set in 1993)- because he didn't understand that when someone changed out the stone at the NW section corner for a 2" AC, ?ÿit didn't change the position of the 1/16th and he didn't need to re-breakdown the section and call the 1/16th off by s49^21'45"W 0.17', or the one a couple weeks ago where the guy licensed less than 1 year rejected 80% of the monuments along a stretch of right of way, because "Based on his experience, they were outside his tolerances"..... At least if we?ÿcalled ourselves a trade, the crew could get union scale......
You may be an AZZhole, but our profession needs more people saying things like this?ÿ
everyone else is just skilled labor
I've seen some survey crews on which no one looked to be very skilled, nor very interested in labor.
In my world, we should be responsible/liable for the location of what is contained in the deed.?ÿ We should still have to research back the way we currently do to discover scrivener's errors, senior rights, and other location errors and issues.
But I think that someone else should be on the hook for items not contained in or referred to in the current deed that are title issues.?ÿ We shouldn't be responsible for missing easements, agreements, or some prior minor conveyance from 80 years ago, that doesn't appear on the tax maps, but still exists.
In some states, with some clients you can limit your practice to the current deed. There isn't really a problem with it as long as everyone is clear with what you are offering.
The thing to realize though is that our income depends on how valuable the services we offer are. Just like with attorneys, there is room in our profession for a wide range of prices and services.
Putting a deed on the ground gets easier and easier every year, and the difference between what we can do and what the average land owner can shrinks.?ÿ
In NY the authorities don't really consider Land Surveyors to be Professionals.?ÿ They are more of a skilled trade like an Electrician.?ÿ Degrees, LSIT, CST, whatever doesn't really matter.?ÿ Those working for Licensed Land Surveyors are technically apprentices unless they eventually get licensed when they become a Land Surveyor.?ÿ
There are some advantages to degrees, LSIT, CST.?ÿ Degrees can shorten the time it takes to be admitted to the license exam; LSIT allows you to buy a card that states you are one, and the company you work for can claim you as one which may help get certain contracts; CST has same effect as LSIT.?ÿ But, you can't sit for the LSIT (FS) exam unless you graduate from a BS program, or if no degree then not until you qualify for both FS and PS exam.
So, either a Land Surveyor, a Land Surveyor in Training, or a Surveying Technician (with or without degree and/or CST).
For liability purposes the courts of the State have treated us as professionals (even though not named in the statutes, like for instance accountants are).?ÿ For expert testimony purposes courts have treated licensed and technicians as professional/experts.?ÿ The State board has removed protection of the name "professional land surveyor" and now only includes the term "land surveyor".?ÿ The State board wants to remove "that part of the engineering profession" from the definition of surveying statute, presumably doubling down on the idea surveyors are not "professionals".
So, para-professional wouldn't seem to be an issue here.
Is that big brained enough?
I had a lot of experience in the construction trades, myself as a carpenter journeyman, construction sup, and project manager. I've worked side-by-side with damned good plumbers, electricians, HVAC, etc. They are not in our league. There isn't a one that doesn't look up to a professional surveyor when we get on the job site.
Wisconsin tried de-professionalizing us the last few years, and it wesn't successful, but don't think that the "Kings of the Business" won't try to get us down to the same level as septic guys or assessors. A few hundred bucks to "get 4 points" - how hard can it be?
Our best defense is to close ranks with each other, build alliances across the real estate business, and we have a lobbyist at the state level. Furthermore, we must act professional. I won't get into that here, which is a whole 'nother topic, but we have to earn that title with the other professionals in the business.
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If you work for a professional on the stuff the professional signs you probably are a para-pro especially if you are working towards become such a professional. As some others have mentioned technicians probably?ÿ a better term.
I have two professional licenses, surveyor and engineer. In my county I don't get treated like I am any sort of professional. You tell the local government some things you know to be correct, they vary from the local myths and long term beliefs, and well, you don't know anything! If you want to be a real genus and professional expert, you need to be a registered voter, US citizen and get elected to some office. Even when they are shown they are wrong they still won't admit you know anything. I think the engineer title gets a bit more respect than surveyor but not much, surveyor is at zero.?ÿ So a survey technician is probably in the negative.
A little tongue in cheek here, but respect for surveyors is not something you get from the locals here.
"A profession is an occupation founded upon specialized educational training, the purpose of which is to supply disinterested objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain." -- from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profession
"Sayin' so don't make it so." -- Mark Twain in Huckleberry Finn
David Maister has some good books on professionalism:
https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/True-Professionalism/David-H-Maister/9780684840048
Before the 20th century, a profession was more like a "calling" -- something one professed to live and breathe so completely that one's objectivity came from the immersion and ongoing study. After the 20th century, a professional got blurred into "gets paid for it," and perhaps ignorantly synonymous with "efficient tradesman."
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A Professional Boundary Surveyor should, at a bare minimum, understand the difference between monuments and corners.?ÿ Monuments are the physical realization of the corner which is the abstract legal entity or idea.?ÿ A monument is not the corner but, more importantly and often missed, a corner is not a monument.?ÿ This confusion is what leads to pincushions, the idea that a corner is a monument that can only be established from remote monuments.
David Maister's True Professionalism , which half bubble recommended, has been on my bookshelf for nearly 20 years. And it is a really good book. It's all about this very question of what makes a professional. One of his most important points is that the opposite of professional is not un-professional. The opposite of professional is technician.?ÿ Technicians now how to do things. Professionals know why they need to be done.?ÿ
