We surveyors take great pride in our work and our work product. We develop standards of practice because we are passionate about our profession. We have condensed and refined a set of rules which we rely upon to govern our methods and procedures. We do this because we care. Too often, however, we need reminding of the "reasons for the rules." The reasons are more important than the rules. When the reason for the rule ceases, the rule ceases.
Take the rule that "monuments control over course and distance" for instance. Why? Simply put, because monuments have four characteristics that measurements don't: Permanence, Stability, Recognition and Certainty. Fence posts are much more permanent than the monuments set by surveyors in my region. They're unarguably more stable than the 5/8" x 24" rebar that my state's standards require. The plastic cap helps in the recognition of who set it (until the cap is lost, destroyed or grown over). We certainly can't claim that the surveyor's marker is more recognizable that a fence post. Certainty isn't a measure of the surveyor, it's adjoining landowners knowledge that the monument marks their boundary. The landowner can see that post from hundreds of yards away in an open field. The fence line stands as a perfect witness leading them to the corner every time. Fence posts meet all requirements of the owners who rely upon them to perpetually mark their boundaries with certainty that will be recognized by subsequent purchasers.
Now comes the surveyor, retracing the boundary and discovering a perfectly placed fence post which interferes with the placement of their prized "monument." Yet, a monument is already marking the corner. Only the surveyor can find a quandary here. It would seem that the corner position was marked and it would also seem that the landowners have relied upon the surveyor's markers to perpetuate their boundary location by taking possession of their land as they are expected. Did the landowner destroy the corner position by erecting a fence post, or did the landowner perpetuate the corner position by upgrading the surveyor's mark to a more permanent, more stable, and more recognizable monument?
Lets say that the surveyor, decades from now retracing the line, finds the fence destroyed. Will he find any remnant of it? A little shovel or trowel work will more readily expose the former location of the post than it will the former location of most surveyor's monuments. If the fence post couldn't survive, what are the chances that a rebar WC a few feet away would survive? Sure, we can place more than one and drive them below the surface where only another surveyor would find them. But, who are we serving; the landowners or future generations of surveyors? If you want more permanence to serve land surveyors, then you're better off setting random control points far from the corner position which will not be mistaken for the corner.
I'd rather find a fence post at a corner any day. All I need to do is document it on my survey and file the survey for permanent record for the next generation of surveyors. I can only hope they'll take the time to locate the remaining evidence should the monument become destroyed. When the fence post doesn't mark the corner, my survey will show a dimension that anyone with a pocket tape can use to find the two-bit rebar that I'm required to set.
Remember, however: Not all fence corners are corner monuments; neither are all survey markers.
JBS
Mr. Quickie never gets out in the field so he just calls your rebar/cap off 5 tenths not realizing the crew had the rover pole leaning way out of plumb.
I was talking to a friend who owns some rural property in Trinity County. Apparently is is monumented by BLM post and cap (he described them to me).
He said they are really small and how are you supposed to find them?
That changed my attitudes. Most Land Surveyors consider those to be super Class A monuments yet the average land owner considers them to be tiny puny little things. Our rebar/plastic cap (often buried) is nothing to them.
A lot of our Forest Boundaries are marked by concrete monuments sticking up at least a foot and a half, that is a good monument. We were doing good up until the early 1970s then it sort of started eroding away. I don't have a crew of 4 people to carry a 4' long concrete monument through the slash and loose slippery terrain so we set 30" long aluminum monuments up a foot or so. If there are stones around I build a mound and of course set BT tags on nearby trees.
> I'd rather find a fence post at a corner any day. All I need to do is document it on my survey and file the survey for permanent record for the next generation of surveyors.
LOL! I assume that's satire.
We've all run into this many dozens of times. Either set the WC on each prop line a foot away, or a metal post I've wired a brass tag on it, or on a wood post either set a PK & tag on the top or at the base along each lot line. The preference would be the WC route, but since we're lazy either PK & tag method will suffice & is easier. What if the corner falls in a block wall? Chisel an "X" will work, mostly because the PK will crack it if you don't drill it out first. At $600 a lot survey the minute you have to start drilling for anything you just shot your budget kapoot.
$0.04
I would just call the fence corner the corner. Witness corners stand too great a chance of causing confusion.
A foot away is entirely too close for a witness corner. As others have said, there is too much chance of confusion. The next guy may find one and say "they built the fence a foot off".
> A foot away is entirely too close for a witness corner. As others have said, there is too much chance of confusion. The next guy may find one and say "they built the fence a foot off".
I have this preconceived presumption that the survey would be recorded, and thus become part of the public record. So anybody that mistakenly misinterprets a WC as a true property corner deserves whatever damages fall on them. All confusion issues notwithstanding.
In those backwards states that do not require recordation of surveys where monuments are set, I would merely put a PK & tag on the top of the post and move on, or wire a tag, or chisel an "X". Shown accordingly on the delivered map of survey.
Just another valid case for requirements to record surveys.
This is a great topic. Of course, the best answer is, "It depends."
In much of our rural area a corner post may be 12 inches or more in diameter and be surrounded by a large ring of concrete several feet deep, possibly up to six feet from one side to the other. The corner post is expected to handle a half mile pull of up to six wires in only one direction. Generally, these corners are dug with backhoes and the concrete placed by a standard ready-mix truck going to several such corners in the same trip. The landowners WANT the corner post to be at the true corner to permit longterm usage without question. Indicating that the corner falls within the base area of the post is adequate. Some might place a nail in the top of the post or chisel an "X" in the concrete, when appropriate. Either will be displaced or destroyed eventually.
The problem is that the surveyor is out there from days to years before the corner post is set and it will probably be several to many more years before any surveyor comes along needing to know the true location of said corner. The surveyor's plat will report that a bar or something has been placed. Even if a bar is found after erection of the corner post, one should not automatically assume it is the origninal or in the original location. Many a landowner, fence buildier or backhoe operator has moved said bar and then sort of stuck it about where it might mean something to somebody someday with good intentions. The future surveyor needs to determine where the bar WAS PLACED ORIGINALLY. Yes, that takes much more effort than merely grabbing the post location and moving on. But, IT IS THE CORRECT THING TO DO. Mr. Quickie needs to send his license back to the BOR and start sacking groceries for a living.
The answer to the question is that you put in witness corners - of course. It's pretty much that simple. Yes, it might "depend" how many you set. Maybe you can't set two, one on each line going both directions, but I agree, that would be the preferred solution. I don't care if your philosophy is that the fence post is the corner like a tree might be, or that it is in an exact millimeter accuracy inside the fence corner. You set witness corners to the actual corner to help preserve the location.
If you're worried about the monuments being misunderstood by the land owner, you put on big caps and stamp in an arrow and a distance to the corner. You explain to the client what you did...etc. etc. The property owners can mistake anything they want to be the actual corner...lath, stakes, flagging, etc. But you do the best you can to communicate with the owners, and you stamp the caps like you need to stamp them (and you put another monument in the fence post if you think that helps.
It isn't that much more money to set two witnesses to the corners than one monument. You were expecting to possibly set several corners anyway. The time it takes to survey, calculate, research etc. makes the setting of a couple of extra corners minimal.
This topic is very interesting to me.
We, in the Philippines, do not have WCs, Bearing Trees, or anything that will describe lot boundary corners. In fact, the regulating government agency does not support or suggest any of the above. They are not included in our surveying manual. In fact, I was shocked one time when I saw a hanging cylindrical concrete monument in the river bank. This is really funny! Just very recently, I utilized bearing trees to describe a lot boundary corner located in a swampy area. I don't know how local practitioners would react to this.
Why Are You Asking Us? Ask The PLS In Responsible Charge
You actually pointed out the exact reason I asked all of you: multiple opinions across the board. I of course got the answer from my boss and followed it to a tee since it's his license and therefore his decision. But pretty soon I'm going to have to be making my own decisions about issues like these once I get a license and then I can do whatever I feel is right, which may or may not be what my boss would do. I don't ever want to put on the blinders and just assume that the reason I handle certain situations the way I do is because my old boss once said so. I really appreciate the in-depth answers I got on this, and I see that the witness corner idea is very popular, though there is disagreement and I'm enjoying the reasoning on each and every answer.
We were talking to a Forester about a quarter section corner. He said he had found it.
I said the monument is buried about a foot down on the edge of a gravel road. He said, no it isn't, it is a monument with cap sticking up half a foot about 30' from the edge of the road.
I said, didn't you notice the big arrow on the cap? It fills the entire cap :-). There's another monument just like it on the top of the bank on the opposite side of the road.
Oh really?
Why Are You Asking Us? Ask The PLS In Responsible Charge
:good:
I like your style.
Good response to a snippy post.
You'll do well.:-)
Don
I hope this helps
Ideas. All I'm gonna post here are ideas. Because you just need to think about what is BEST here, and do that.
1.) Tie a bunch of flagging around the fencepost, about 4" up or flush with the ground. And call the post the corner.
2.) Do the WC thing, (as KM says above) but be sure you cap the mons, and put the O/S dist on the cap. Be Sure your client, and or persons relying on the plat understand what you did. Be sure your plat is filed, so no other surveyor USES your O/S mon as the corner. I found a section corner, where a later surveyor shot the W/C, and USED it as the actual mon. The OS dist was 3.0'.
3.) Pull out the old rotten fence posts, because they are so far gone anyway, and drive your own BHM, with cap. (BHM = Big Honkin' Monument)
4.) Do nothing, call the fence corners good, and state that the fencepost is occupying the corner.
5.) Ask your client what they would like. Give them some of these options, and they may have opinions, and preferences.
6.) Don't forget, the survey is for the USE of others. So, make it USEFUL for them. Do what they need, and will meet the needs of others, in time to come.
Just some ideas. Mix and match.
Nate
What a strange lot we are. We can't accept wood unless we can verify it with a metal detector.
Agreed! Those guys 150+ years ago set cedar posts around here ever 1/2 a mile. When I find one I get all excited and tell all my surveyor friends, so what is wrong with one now?
> I was talking to a friend who owns some rural property in Trinity County. Apparently is is monumented by BLM post and cap (he described them to me).
>
> He said they are really small and how are you supposed to find them?
Well, if it's ever time to build a fence, you want the landowner to call a surveyor to come and mark the line between the corners, don't you? For rural boundaries out in the bush, there's nothing wrong with driving a steel tee post beside a survey marker, although personally I prefer PVC pipe.
> Agreed! Those guys 150+ years ago set cedar posts around here ever 1/2 a mile. When I find one I get all excited and tell all my surveyor friends, so what is wrong with one now?
Well, isn't the tiny little difference that you are referring to a mark placed by a surveyor and the subject of this thread is a fence post that was just set by some unknown person from some unknown country at some unknown time?
Yes a T-post is a pretty common witness.
We also set 6' long aluminum U-posts. They are light to carry and should be fairly durable.
