I'm looking for advice on how to handle a Pin Farmer. An old Client called me about a new pin that had been set 2.20 feet from his fence corner. He was concerned because the new pin put his entire western fence trespassing on the west neighbor's property. I went out and verified the situation. The original pin was still in place at his fence corner and the new pin was indeed 2.20 feet inside his fence and also directly in line with his north fence. I contacted the Surveyor, newly licensed, who had set the new pin by email requesting his methodology and reasoning for setting a new pin. He replied quite belligerently that in his professional opinion the original pin had been disturbed and he was going to stand by his pin. He also stated he was offended that I would question his pin's position. Apparently the only recourse would be to go Court to have him remove his pin which he stated. An expensive endeavor. I advised my client to notify his neighbor to the north that his Surveyor had created a 2.2 foot jog at the fence corner and he would have to construct his new fence to his Surveyor's pin and not to my client's fence corner to avoid trespassing on the neighbor to the west. A pretty stupid situation created by an Egotistical Surveyor. Opinions?
The only real options are to sit down with the newbie and compare evidence or tell your client to discuss the situation with aa Attorney. It seems that the newbie, by your description, will not entertain a professional conversation.
I've been in a similar situation (with no fence involved) where my client constructed a new home, based on my resolution of the boundary and my stakeout based on my resolution. The grumpy neighbor had an uncapped pin along the common line and his son was a builder who built the old man the house and drove a pin where he thought it should go while building the first home on the block with no surveyor involved. It became a nightmare as the old man was ranting on the town officials and they were harping on me until I shared my info with the town's consulting Surveyor and he agreed with me.
That arrogant SOB should show his hand if he wants to be so cocky!
Did you survey that property for your old client. I’d request a meeting if he was disagreeing with my survey.
To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven
A time to plant, a time to reap
I would only get involved in this debate if I had been the one who set the original pin in its original position and verified that it is still correct today.
On the other hand, I received a call this evening from an 85 year-old fellow who remembered that I did a survey for his neighbor about six years ago and that I had found the bars on his west line as part of my solution to that survey. His bars were set in the 1970s by an excellent surveyor who has been deceased for more than 30 years. I accepted those bars as being golden although one was about six inches closer to another bar down the block than what the subdivision plat had indicated in about 1900.
His current neighbor had stacked a bunch of junk in their common corner, covering up the bar. A few days ago, he used a skid steer bucket to round up all of the junk and tore out the bar by accident. The old fellow wants to put a bar back where that one had been at his own expense, even though it is the fault of the neighbor. That is precisely where I will put it.
I contacted the Surveyor, newly licensed, who had set the new pin by email requesting his methodology and reasoning for setting a new pin.
I assume this is not a recording state? I'd see if your client can obtain the survey from their neighbor, if they are on good terms. That might shed some light on the situation.
But then again, in my experience those who aren't willing to discuss their professional opinion over the phone or email are the same ones who refuse to place a survey narrative on their signed & sealed surveys, leaving it a mystery how they arrived at their conclusions.
He also stated he was offended that I would question his pin's position. Apparently the only recourse would be to go Court to have him remove his pin which he stated.
Oh, I don't know about that.
I'm not sure what the Board is like in your state, but they might be interested in a surveyor who refuses to supply information to his fellow practitioners about a survey that throws an established boundary into question.
Boards generally avoid questions of where pins fall. They do focus on how we arrive at our conclusions. Refusal to explain his reasoning does not bode well for the pup. Failure to cooperate with reasonable questions from a fellow licensee is probably a violation of statute or rule as well.
Idaho requires notice prior to setting a monument in the face of any monument or corner of record. This youngster can be thankful he is on the other side of the divide...
If a fellow surveyor calls me with a question about something I've surveyed, I take it as an opportunity to get ahead of a potential problem. I try to be as helpful as is reasonable and setup a meeting to try and figure things out. On the other side of the coin, if I'm the one calling another surveyor because I've found a difference, I will ask for a sit down "because maybe you had some plats or evidence that I don't have". Attitude is important, it sets the tone for cooperation. Arrogance has no place on either side of this coin. After all, aren't both surveyors supposed to be seeking the truth? What to do with the arrogant pin farmer?
Arrogance goeth before the fall.
Tact and diplomacy are essential.
About two years ago I found a plat on file that significantly disagreed with one of mine. Four bars that were found were accepted as being where I had put them. If the field tech would have attempted to set a bar where I had reported one had been set, he would have discovered he couldn't do it because that was near the center of four fence corner posts. Instead, he shot the bars that had been stabbed willynilly back into the soft dirt NEAR each corner post, as if that meant anything. The field tech made the foolish assumption that I had been so horribly sloppy in such short distances.
The plat was corrected and the first submittal was removed from the County file and replaced with one indicating those four corners were near the center of newly-set corner posts with witness bars found as reported.
He filed a Certificate of Survey stating that he didn't accept the original pin because it was disturbed. It's in place at an existing fence corner. Doesn't appear disturbed to me or the adjacent Land Owners. Granted is doesn't match the Deed by 2 feet. Why he would pincushion-in a corner 2.2 feet away from obvious long time occupation and original pin is beyond my comprehension. The question is: Should I report it to the State Board of Registration or let it slide?
You shouldn’t report him to the Board until after you have shared your survey with him.
I'd inform your client of the options and potential consequences associated with each. Then I might suggest you send a letter requesting an explanation of the evidence the young PLS used to make his determination. Have your client sign the letter too. Attached to or with the letter, provide your explanation of why you held the monument he ignored. If he refuses to answer after that, report him before he sets fires in more neighborhoods.
@skeeter1996 I would ask him what evidence (not including his instruments and calculator) indicated the monument was disturbed.
This is one of my pet peeves. A complete listing of those is too voluminous for posting, but I digress..
When a fellow professional starts his narrative with, 'I believe', 'I feel,' or 'I think', it invites a teaching moment. Boundary location is not dependent on faith, emotional attachment, or philosophy. It is a matter of evidence evaluated under the law. If they don't get that I send them a Back Street Boys CD...
If you go to the board over this I'm not sure what you would accomplish. The other surveyor has a different opinion where the corner is. If it truly was disturbed it might make sense to mathematically reposition it, if it's not a disturbed monument then he's clearly in the wrong. Frankly from what little there is in the OP I would conjecture that the pin may have been disturbed and the fence corner is the actual corner position. I can't see how a math position is a valid answer.
But at the end of the day you'll be getting the board involved with a spat of opinions, each acceptable to some degree for a surveyor to have. I'm more on your side than the other, but it's way better if you can figure out a way to convince the other surveyor, have a meeting with him and go over it, the idea that a court battle ensues over this is the real tragedy. I've been in these situations many times, I've watched it go the wrong direction when it all could have been avoided. Usually if an hours long meeting can be arranged the "wrong" surveyor can be convinced. It's unfortunate that it's contentious now.
