Working on a project where the Government survey was performed in 1865. All I need is the north section line from the northwest corner to the north quarter corner. Everything else is somewhat unneeded. Nevertheless, research indicates that none of the original corner monuments exist.
From prior work, I know that the Government monuments ( stake and pits and a couple of stones) along the east and south sides of the section are long gone and replaced with iron bars in the middle of county roads. Have no experience with the north or west sides of this section. But, there is no county road on the west side due to three significant creek crossings. The county road near the north section line diverts greatly from the line to twist and turn along two creeks.
In 1872 the county surveyor re-establishes and subdivides the northwest quarter. Found his stone at the northwest corner. Fantastic. An 1878 survey in the section to the north indicates the north quarter corner must have disappeared (again) and was reset based on the testimony of the patent holder in the section I'm working in. Set a 18"x16"x30" limestone. That had to be quite a chore as there may be two inches of dirt atop a thousand feet of limestone in that area. In 1884 the county opened a road such that this big old limestone would be standing up smack in the middle of it and no way to lower it. No other survey activity since 1884. This leaves no recourse but to accept physical evidence of where it might have been.
Here's the fun part. The distance from the northwest corner stone to the bar at the northeast corner is 5280.12 feet and the Field Notes indicate it to be a perfect 80.00 chains. However, based on tons of evidence in the nearby sections, most quarter corners on east-west lines were fiction. When traversing the east section line, the original surveyor had to cross one significant creek. On the west line, he had two major creeks and one minor one to cross. If he had actually traversed over and back on the north section line to set the north quarter corner per his record he would have had one major creek crossing followed by two more crossings of a second creek in that first half mile and then returned, crossing them all again. The current, accepted location of the north quarter corner, as attested to by the patent holder of one tract in 1878, is over 105 feet from the midpoint of a theoretical line connecting the northwest and northeast section corners. If the line from the northwest corner to the north quarter corner runs 90 degrees east of north, then the line from the north quarter corner to the northeast corner runs 85 degrees 46 minutes 36 seconds east of north. Add those two distances to get 5281.66 feet (close, right?). If the patent holder intentionally lied in 1878 he was shorting himself 36 feet on one side and 99 feet on another. So, that's not too probable.
Please don't expect me to try to put a curve in this east-west section line based on some theoretical use of a solar compass.
I ran into a situation where I had a section corner that was a fence corner that was quite a bit off by distance. Similar situation where there is a river criss crossing through the section. Not a major river but the kind of river you don't wade across easily either. I counted the number of times they would have had to cross the river if they had divided the section by the book, it was several times. I'm sure they took some kind of shortcut or just didn't set some of the corners. It always hard to say since in my area it happened about 200 years ago.
Quarter corners on e-w lines do seem to have been optional at times back in the day. I have seen a few examples of north section lines (all three original monuments) where the entire distance measured wasn't too bad (3-5 feet, one way or the other), but the quarter corners aren't anywhere near on line, or anywhere near a split. One particular section up in the panhandle has an original quarter corner nearly 100' south of a line between the two section corners. And of course, their notes eloquently state they chained back east (on a random line) and intersected the section line, corrected back up and chained back west (on a TRUE line....) and set the quarter corner properly....Of course they did!..:whistle:
Sounds to me like you're stuck with the north quarter corner location where ol' 1878 said it was. Besides..what's 105 feet between friends??
Who was the original contract surveyor for the GLO? I might recognize his name and give a little perspective. In Nebraska, that is generally the first thing to consider is who did the work. I am sure you already have your own list of names as well.
In Florida (and Alabama) there is constant confusion between å? mile posts and å? corners. Usually the å? mile posts were set and then the å? corner set by correction using the å? mile post for reference. Hence some surveyors used the å? mile post as the å? corner which in some cases is the wrong ÛÏmonumentÛ. Confusion has persisted as long as I can remember.
From ÛÏBrown's Boundary Control and Legal PrinciplesÛ
https://books.google.com/books?id=58gb1Od4-KsC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=florida+half+mile+post+or+1/4+corner&source=bl&ots=uz6y2G3cid&sig=XkcEhWScfW0ejAR6yJU7I6xkLVU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAWoVChMI06uu2O-KyQIVBnkmCh1HrwHg#v=onepage&q=florida%20half%20mile%20post%20or%201%2F4%20corner&f=false&apos ;"> https://books.google.com/books?id=58gb1Od4-KsC&pg=PA155&lpg=PA155&dq=florida+half+mile+post+or+1/4+corner&source=bl&ots=uz6y2G3cid&sig=XkcEhWScfW0ejAR6yJU7I6xkLVU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAWoVChMI06uu2O-KyQIVBnkmCh1HrwHg#v=onepage&q=florida half mile post or 1/4 corner&f=false
B-)
Was the setting of half-mile posts ever authorized by a Manual? Was it in the Specials - or was it just a custom?
The only similar thing I can relate to here are the monuments set as mile posts (or whatever it really was) along an Indian Treaty Boundary. Normally, these do not fall close to a section corner or quarter corner. For example, one line that I work near from time to time has the boundary line running about 600 to 1200 feet away from a somewhat parallel section line. Their starting point did not begin where a section line was placed 30 years later as it was on a longitudinal line that had no tie to the principal meridian of the government survey process.
Page 138 Section 5-39:
http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/az/pdfs/cad/man.Par.63181.File.dat/complete.pdf
B-)
Thank you sir! I have a very vague recollection regarding this. I see that it is now a part of Chap. VII of the 2009 Manual, albeit in a very unusual manner...
Brown's comments about removing them is quite interesting. A BLM resurvey could become very, very interesting. I certainly can see why there could be confusion!
When I'm suspicious about a particular location I like to play the, "How is someone gonna prove me wrong game?" The number one way to win this game research, which you appear to have done. So I assume you're choices are: 1) Use what you believe is the 1878 location, 2) Find the 1872 'lost' location, 3)Use calls from the original BLM notes to prove 1878 wrong, 4) Prorate.
#1 seems like a slam dunk to me. Especially since it's just 23 years after the original survey and you have 'Patent Holder' testimony. That's the one, "I would prefer to explain to the judge." Another favorite game of mine.
Steve
Holy Cow, post: 343907, member: 50 wrote: Working on a project where the Government survey was performed in 1865. All I need is the north section line from the northwest corner to the north quarter corner. Everything else is somewhat unneeded. Nevertheless, research indicates that none of the original corner monuments exist.
From prior work, I know that the Government monuments ( stake and pits and a couple of stones) along the east and south sides of the section are long gone and replaced with iron bars in the middle of county roads. Have no experience with the north or west sides of this section. But, there is no county road on the west side due to three significant creek crossings. The county road near the north section line diverts greatly from the line to twist and turn along two creeks.
In 1872 the county surveyor re-establishes and subdivides the northwest quarter. Found his stone at the northwest corner. Fantastic. An 1878 survey in the section to the north indicates the north quarter corner must have disappeared (again) and was reset based on the testimony of the patent holder in the section I'm working in. Set a 18"x16"x30" limestone. That had to be quite a chore as there may be two inches of dirt atop a thousand feet of limestone in that area. In 1884 the county opened a road such that this big old limestone would be standing up smack in the middle of it and no way to lower it. No other survey activity since 1884. This leaves no recourse but to accept physical evidence of where it might have been.
Here's the fun part. The distance from the northwest corner stone to the bar at the northeast corner is 5280.12 feet and the Field Notes indicate it to be a perfect 80.00 chains. However, based on tons of evidence in the nearby sections, most quarter corners on east-west lines were fiction. When traversing the east section line, the original surveyor had to cross one significant creek. On the west line, he had two major creeks and one minor one to cross. If he had actually traversed over and back on the north section line to set the north quarter corner per his record he would have had one major creek crossing followed by two more crossings of a second creek in that first half mile and then returned, crossing them all again. The current, accepted location of the north quarter corner, as attested to by the patent holder of one tract in 1878, is over 105 feet from the midpoint of a theoretical line connecting the northwest and northeast section corners. If the line from the northwest corner to the north quarter corner runs 90 degrees east of north, then the line from the north quarter corner to the northeast corner runs 85 degrees 46 minutes 36 seconds east of north. Add those two distances to get 5281.66 feet (close, right?). If the patent holder intentionally lied in 1878 he was shorting himself 36 feet on one side and 99 feet on another. So, that's not too probable.
Please don't expect me to try to put a curve in this east-west section line based on some theoretical use of a solar compass.
137 years of occupation beats falling on a split every single time....
I agree, at times you need to admit you can't find any trace or evidence of the original monument. Then common sense needs to convince you that some cook book mathematical formula isn't the solution either and just puts more chaos into the situation. Luckily in my state the common sense of our Supreme Court would lead one to accept what has been accepted by the landowners all this time. What I can't understand is WHY this is so hard for so many people.
The land auction was held earlier today for over 400 acres, of which the above survey story involved less than five acres. It sold for triple what the agriculturally-derived value would justify paying. What looks like waste ground to one person looks like a gold mine to another. In this case, at least two people to run the bidding up so high. None of the bidders need any more income. They need a place to hide it to reduce their income taxes.
Cow, if it makes you feel any better, here is a bit of Tuesdays survey.
These are all found original stones, note the east-west 1/4's.
I'm sure he ran the entire line.B-)
MightyMoe, post: 344272, member: 700 wrote: ..I'm sure he ran the entire line.B-)
Looks good to me. As for the e-w procedure of running "random" then back "true"; we all know it was BS.
BTW, you ARE going to set new qtr. cors. at an on line split, aren't you?....seeing's how they messed up when they set them originally..... 😉
Of course I'm setting them on the split, well,,,,,,,,, the split on the curve,,,,,,,,,just for Cow:whistle:
Everyone knows they ain't no curve on north-south lines. And............most of us have learned they ain't no curve on east-west lines, either.
Moe, I love your great example. Those east-west lines are sort of bent and nowhere near the same distances. Inquiring minds want to know if any search was made by the prior surveyor for the east and west quarter corners. It could be a sizable search radius, for sure, for sure based on the variations found on the north and south lines of the section.
Cow, I did look for the W1/4, I don't need the E1/4 for any reason so I didn't even go there, its likely in place, most of the N-S 1/4's are.
The west 1/4 is interesting, although I don't HAVE to recover or set it for what I'm doing, I would like to find it. I went there first after recovering and monumenting the south line. It was a bit difficult to get to, lots of steep ravine crossings with the 4-wheeler. When I got there; due north of the southwest corner put me about 15' east of a steep drop into a 20' deep wash. No chance of the stone surviving if it was there, making my search confined to a much smaller than usual area.
I found no stone in the very smooth plain above the wash, but I did see something rare.
I've had a lot of discussion with the BLM guys who have done 1000's of sections in the area, and old-timers about surveys in this part of the country and almost universally they say they have never (or almost never) seen pits. I have very rarely seen them in this area, but I've seen many in a neighboring state, in fact I've found and remonumented corners using them so I'm always looking.
At this corner almost 2640' north were two wallows, 11' apart lining up north and south (the notes describe them E and W of the corner).
They look like pits I've seen although kinda large, they also look like cow wallows and may be completely random, but........................
I dug between them for quite a while, no luck
I finally gave up, and decided if I need the corner I would make my way back there, but I found the NW and so it makes no sense to spend the time diving in and out of the ravines to get back:
If I HAVE to set the W1/4 I would probably use the wallows, just wish they were east-west.
Cool country actually:
That scenery made me think of this anomaly much closer to my home than yours.
http://www.kansastravel.org/monumentrocks.htm
The layers are interesting, lots of in your face geology out there.
Finally found this one, was a frustrating experience, the third time looking.
dug it out from under a fence, buried about 3"
this is the east face, so you can figure out which corner it is.