Ron Lang, post: 397319, member: 6445 wrote: What I find interesting is I don't see a Francis anywhere in the list of those registered to survey in Singapore. Unless you are posting as an alias you cannot or have not even met the minimum requirements to gain licensure in a third world country. And your 47 years old.....ha ha ha keep on preaching
Although Francis has not shown much respect we should still respect him. Calling Singapore a third world country is disrespectful . Singapore has a much higher per capita income than the US. That explains how they were able to afford to implement the system that Francis is so proud of. That system is financially out of reach here.
What Francis doesn't seem to realise is that Singapore relied on the very same English common law principles he is critisising here to create their goverment garaunteed boundaries. The coordinates were not just dropped from Heaven.
I for one think his system is better once all the work done to create it is done, but I am glad we don't have it here. It would make the job of a surveyor pretty boring.
FrancisH, post: 397372, member: 10211 wrote: And yet the first that they teach you in surveying 101 is how to use a transit and a steel tape.
It's tought first because measuments are the simplest things that need to be tought. Most degree programs proceed from the simple to the more complex.
Yes, I suspect that Singapore's current status was the result of the friendly equivalent of our Declaration of Independence - essentially creating a relatively recent snapshot in time of the cadastre in place. Subsequent division of those grandparent parcels would have been done to a much higher refinement than what the U.S. had to contend with.
By adhering to individual states' oversight as to statutory control (based on the organic law contained in each state's constitution), private property rights are locally administered and adjudicated when necessary. The rub occurs when abutting federal interest, through unpatented public land (forest and park reserves, military and native reservations, and the like). Also littoral and mineral interests between the trust held by federal agencies. The defining of those buffers requires specialty training and implementation.
There is a tremendous variety of warp and woof to the fabric of ownership rights and location in the United States.
Elias Glover, post: 397496, member: 1494 wrote: There went 3 hours I'll never get back.
But isn't it better than the bogus theory thread?
There is a tremendous variety of warp and woof to the fabric of ownership rights and location in the United States.
You know about this discrepancies and yet you refuse to take a step to correct this over all these years. You keep on saying it's too difficult covering a large area and all the litigation involve would be overwhelming.
You start by correcting this one lot at a time. You see a monument 10' out of position, you correct this. You don't just accept this. If you accept the monument then record the new description to reflect this on the deed.
You can keep on crying at what a big problem this all is but you will keep on crying for the next 200 years and it will still be unsolved.
Steps are taken with virtually every survey to correct discrepancies. One lot at a time isn't workable - that's what the fabric characterization is meant to convey. It's similar to a spider's web - interconnected. Those connections are what retracement surveying is all about.
I can't personally speak to how Singapore's system is set up, so I won't disparage it.
FrancisH, post: 397779, member: 10211 wrote: You know about this discrepancies and yet you refuse to take a step to correct this over all these years. You keep on saying it's too difficult covering a large area and all the litigation involve would be overwhelming.
You start by correcting this one lot at a time. You see a monument 10' out of position, you correct this. You don't just accept this. If you accept the monument then record the new description to reflect this on the deed.
You can keep on crying at what a big problem this all is but you will keep on crying for the next 200 years and it will still be unsolved.
As far as I can tell, you're the only one "crying at what a big problem this all is". Who said it was a big problem? A fascinating line of work with challenges involved? Sure. Met by many extremely talented surveyors across this land for many years. You're tilting at windmills.
there was a time when I preferred construction staking. It was a challenge to get all that stuff built by the numbers, and make it fit just right (if the design was build-able). But then it became boring, just repetitive labor, so I sought work that was primarily boundary. The pay was less but I preferred the challenge.
This exchange reminds me of a discussion I overheard about 42 years ago between two engineering graduate students. One was a native of India. The other was from Taiwan. Their ideologies were very different. Bizarre subjects would be tossed into their debates just for fun, or so it seemed to me. Birth control or the lack thereof, for instance, would get them fired up. At one point the fellow from India asked the fellow from Taiwan for the population of his country. The answer was around 900 million. The fellow from India exclaimed, "On that tiny island?" Then the fellow from Taiwan explained that was all of China, his homeland, and that the government had temporarily moved to Taiwan but would soon return to the proper place on the mainland when Mao and his rebels were defeated. Both fellows were brilliant when it came to the classroom and their research projects but were near opposites on most everything else.
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Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
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FrancisH,
How would you survey a parcel that reads the following:
N-By Smith
E-By Jones
S-By Yankee Road
W-by Harness
Or
N-By Smith, 100 feet, more or less
E- By Jones, 100 feet, more or less
S- By Yankee Road, 100 feet, more or less
W-By Harness, 100 feet, more or or less
So this thread is number one for the new forum, and there's no end in sight. Ain't it grand?
I have visions of the old stone vs. pipe thread ...
FrancisH, post: 397779, member: 10211 wrote: yet you refuse to take a step to correct this over all these years
Um, Mr. Francis, when a description says :Thence north 500' to the river, and you find that the SECTION lines, run at N01å¡13'14"E and the river is only at 450', that BECOMES the new record. Correcting this does not mean MOVING the river.
When you find a description that needs updated, you do it. When you find a monument that is MOVED or DISTURBED, you set another one.
Say, have you ever been to USA, or Canada, or Japan?
FrancisH, post: 397779, member: 10211 wrote: You know about this discrepancies and yet you refuse to take a step to correct this over all these years.
Who is going to pay me?
I don't work for free and my clients aren't going to pay me to fix the problems of the world.
Warren Smith, post: 397798, member: 9900 wrote: So this thread is number one for the new forum, and there's no end in sight. Ain't it grand?
I have visions of the old stone vs. pipe thread ...
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I have found this discussion very interesting. Tasmania is basically in between the two sides here (but probably closer to the Singapore end).
We have our share of the old surveys where occupation and old monuments rule. We have our share of conveyances (what you call deeds) where the title is described by words and the dimensions used in these conveyances are usually close to the truth but sometimes significantly different and so usually are only used as a guide.
What we do have is a system that stopped accepting conveyances a number of decades back and only accepts accurate surveys as the basis for new titles. We also have a system that every time a corner is marked, survey notes should be prepared for the Land Titles Office to be on the public record so all other surveyors can see what has happened in the past and it is rare to find undocumented corner marks in the field. We also have a rule that all surveys since 2005 have had to be coordinated and on grid datum.
Basically we are moving away from the USA system towards the SG system. Over time the cadastre is constantly being fixed, one survey at a time. Whilst some say we are slowly doing ourselves out of a job as is becomes easier and easier to establish a boundary location, I am happy with this. We live in a constantly changing world and we are using the modern technology available to improve the cadastre, which reduces complexity and uncertainly over boundary location and which improves the situation for the general public.
After all, the general public are the most important thing to consider. I do not understand non recording systems. If I survey a boundary, I have a duty to consider both sides of it (as we all do I hope) and part of the recording process is to protect the adjoining land owner who is not my client. If the plans, etc, etc just sit on a hard drive in one surveyors computer, it makes the adjoining land owner's job a lot more difficult to understand things when a survey next door should improve understanding and reduce uncertainty.
Keep up the discussion all. I enjoy hearing about how other systems work and even though this one seems a bit fractious at times, it has been very interesting and educational.
As an aside, if someone wants some bed time reading take a look here for our applicable case law ( http://dpipwe.tas.gov.au/Documents/FHoogesteger-11.2010.pdf http://dpipwe.tas.gov.au/Documents/FHoogesteger-11.2010.pdf ).
Who is going to pay me?
I don't work for free and my clients aren't going to pay me to fix the problems of the world.
You havent really understood this thread. The client paid you to survey their lot. If you find any markers that's a blunder from deed description, you move thee markers to coincide with their deed description. If you don't want to move the markers, then have them record a revised deed description.
The only problem with this thread is that the probie is not responding to all the information the rest of the world has to offer.
IT would be a wonderful world where the same cookie cutter action would be the universal fix and fit uniformly .
THat is something that still needs more locations to be made to build the mold to work from.
What the reality is that on average there are a handfull of surveyors to survey mill8ons of acres of land.
Som of which is still simply divided on a very out dated paper sketch.
WE are many years at task before we are able to know where final monunent location will be before we leave the office.
So until that time we must l8ve with the musings of a sad fractured concept from someone tooting their own horn.
:p