I don't think reporting distances out to 4 or 5 decimals places to show the difference between a 50' grid distance and 50' ground distance on a map would be useful in any way. Some surveyors go their entire career and never work on the plane and likely aren't very comfortable with it. For many years after becoming licensed, all I knew about the State Plane Coordinate System I learned to take the exam, so there was no way I was proficient enough to work in it. But after 18 years of working with it on every project, there is no mystery. Now, when calculating areas, I strongly recommend only using ground distances because the differences are squared in that calculation, verses a dimension on a line.
When is a foot not a foot?
> I question who is being short sighted. We live in a GIS world now. Deal with it.
Maybe most everybody does, but not me. We still actually measure distances on the ground.
Just say what needs to be said
So... the actual area of this parcel is 36.761 acres...??
When is a foot not a foot?
Every time you plumb the chain or move the total station you create a new horizontal plane perpendicular to gravity. As has been stated, surface distances are truly along the sloped surface and no one reports that.
My condolences...
"I question who is being short sighted. We live in a GIS world now. Deal with it."
No -I don't have to. Why would you intentionally introduce a potential source of confusion like this into a perfectly sound system that has worked for centuries is beyond me...
How about 640 feet, 2640 or a mile at a high elevation, not uncommon distances for some, the differences can show up a feet in come cases. All don't live or work where grid and ground are in close proximity. Because a government agency chooses to use grid, that does not make it appropriate for boundary work in the private sector. Grid has it's places, but not in legal descriptions.
jud
" no landowner will be capable of measuring accurately enough to ever be affected by the differences created by using a grid distance to measure on the ground."
Really? I work in areas ranging from 5,000 to 7,000 feet in elevation, and often on large parcels thousands of acres in size. The differences are quite large - not to mention areas. Are laymen in your area capable of converting "grid areas" to "ground areas"?
:good:
Is there any other profession that insists the earth is flat?
Agreed. Around here it makes a foot and a half per mile. I like grid bearings, though.
Just say NO!
> .....You guys and your fancy new toys are really going to create havoc with land ownership.
Hahah..that's the truth!
A lot of the newer Calif LS's would not be able to recognize a 'property corner' if it bit them on the ankle.
The arc mean bearing issue applies whether working in grid or not...
how many landowners are performing their own measurements on such large tracts? if so, how are they doing it?
Better reply:
How many lawyers in NYC think .01 of difference in measurement in a lot line makes a difference, because they then think that should affect what the owner owes in property taxes vs. his neighbor...? 😉
> Is there any other profession that insists the earth is flat?
Engineering & Construction are two.
Not sure how the engineers will cope with their road stationing on the grid.
0+99.9 1+99.8 2+99.7 or some such nonsense.
We have at least two municipalities here locally that were platted in NAD27 State Plane.
The really ANNOYING thing is that many corners have coordinates on them, in NAD27, even though nobody wants to use NAD27 anymore. And I don't really know what happens with the home-owners, who have areas reported in grid-acres. I actually wonder if they're getting a cheap deal, since that measurement would be less than a ground-area measurement (they're both well over 4000 ft elev).
> I think it's silly.
>
> Deed Descriptions should be based on monuments, and numbers secondary.
>
> Let's not confuse conveyancing with GIS!
So how is it that the use of grid distances precludes making all the same calls to monuments, senior lines and such?
I've always been of the mind that as long as you've written your description such that your controlling elements are clearly identified, it doesn't matter what units you use, and the accuracy of the measurements recited becomes of lesser importance.
I've known some surveyors whose measurements have error that often amount to more variation form a carefully measured ground distance than the scale factor between grid and ground would yield.
As long as the description writer is clear that grid is being used, identifies the proper datum, and provides a CSF, I don't understand what the fuss is about?
I can see the conversation...
Concerned Landowner: I need to order fence materials. How far is it from my front corner to may back corner on this side?
Surveyor: Well let's see... your description says 150.27'.... NO! Wait, wait! I see this description was written with grid distances... [mutters under breath] Stupid GIS, flat earth surveyor!... Give me a minute to calculate the real distance.
[Surveyor goes back to his truck, digs out the Kurta & is back in a few minutes]
Surveyor: Gosh, I almost blew it and gave you the wrong distance... [goes into boring explanation of round earth projected on arbitrary & imaginary flat surface while CL's eyes begin to glaze]... The real distance is 150.28'
CL: [a bit confused] How much difference is that?
Surveyor: About an eighth of an inch.
If you see such a thing happening, what kind of Surveyors do you hang around with?
jud
Just say what needs to be said
> So... the actual area of this parcel is 36.761 acres...??
No, the actual area is about 36.758 acres. A difference of about 0.003 acres or about 130.7 s.f, or about 0.00611%.
Again, what's the big deal? NO landowner (and a few surveyors) will never perceive any difference.
The only time it might make a difference to a landowner who is particularly skilled at making measurements is if the property were way off at the edge of the zone and had a significant elevation factor. Otherwise, it's negligible or utterly meaningless to the landowner.
I used to work at the far edge of a zone, typically at an elevation of 6200' to 6600'. The difference between grid and ground was about 0.32' per 1000', or 0.03' per hundred feet. That's much tighter than any lot owner is going to be able to measure.