Do your DOT's accept found monuments along Federal & State Highways? Or do they reject them and create a "best-fit" line through them and then document how far off the best-fit line each monument falls.
Are you, as a private surveyor, allowed to do this, or do the monuments control the line location, with a bearing change at each monument?
I have seen DOTs do both. Rejecting the monuments might make sence if they were set long after the aquisition, but I have never seen any legal justification for it otherwise. I would never do it. Some DOTs seem to only monument the centerline now to avoid this problem.
Jim in AZ, post: 414466, member: 249 wrote: Do your DOT's accept found monuments along Federal & State Highways? Or do they reject them and create a "best-fit" line through them and then document how far off the best-fit line each monument falls.
Are you, as a private surveyor, allowed to do this, or do the monuments control the line location, with a bearing change at each monument?
The second part of your question is the more relevant one as far as I'm concerned. The usual State highway right-of-way in Texas is a strip of land purchased in fee simple and described in relation to a centerline that was surveyed in the course of the acquisition. The older conveyances make no reference to markers of any sort, only to the centerline "as staked out" or some similar phrase to indicate that a survey had been made prior to the transaction.
Lines of hubs were set along the boundaries of the newly acquired strip and either new fences were built to the lines or the existing fences were moved to the new lines. In the course of the actual construction, right-of-way markers were installed as an item of work under the construction contract. Typically, the State highway department marked lines for the installation of the markers, but the level of care that was put into that exercise varied quite a bit.
So, here we are sixty years later. The concrete right-of-way markers have been through the wars. They are either (a) just a rusty tangle of rebar sticking out of the ground with a few shards of broken concrete attached, (b) leaning at about a 45å¡ angle off plumb, (c) completely gone, or (d) in place in as perfect shape as a person might reasonably expect the roughly 4-inch square top a blank surface of concrete.
Along the right-of-way there may be lots of survey markers placed with different levels of care in the course of surveys made over sixty years.
The grant to the State controls the boundary, so the task is to locate the centerline described in the original conveyance. Typically, the concrete right-of-way markers placed in the course of construction are the most compelling evidence of the location of the centerline, but not always. Some of the concrete right-of-way markers may be wildly out of position, i.e. in locations that are completely incompatible with any reasonable construction of the language of the original conveyance by which the State acquired the land in the highway right-of-way. It will also happen that private surveyors have perpetuated the locations of the centerlines as staked at the time of the original acquisition.
My answer is that I usually hold the monument. Now with that being said, It is getting harder and harder to find said DOT monuments. Some I don't think were ever set and some are disappearing, especially in urban areas. the highways and some other roads are actually held in fee by the state, so its treated like most other boundary lines.
I never liked the argument that the monuments don't hold because contracters set them inaccurately. DOT is still responsible for them. Try telling the guy who built his house off of them that the DOT ROW markers don't actually mark the ROW and the ROW is an invisible line that is only tied to something he can actually see one mile away from his property.
aliquot, post: 414494, member: 2486 wrote: I never liked the argument that the monuments don't hold because contracters set them inaccurately. DOT is still responsible for them. Try telling the guy who built his house off of them that the DOT ROW markers don't actually mark the ROW and the ROW is an invisible line that is only tied to something he can actually see one mile away from his property.
I agree. They were set to mark the "right of way", they have been treated for many years as marking the right of way, most usually have "right of way" stamped on them., In most cases there are maps/plans filed with the DOT that call them out as marking the right of way.
Legally, how do these monuments rate getting ignored over mere measurements? If they mean absolutely nothing to no one, why were they even set, just to create confusion so the DOT's can force landowners to move their improvements every time a surveyor "recreates" where the line was supposed to have placed?
Brian Allen, post: 414508, member: 1333 wrote: I agree. They were set to mark the "right of way", they have been treated for many years as marking the right of way, most usually have "right of way" stamped on them., In most cases there are maps/plans filed with the DOT that call them out as marking the right of way.
Legally, how do these monuments rate getting ignored over mere measurements? If they mean absolutely nothing to no one, why were they even set, just to create confusion so the DOT's can force landowners to move their improvements every time a surveyor "recreates" where the line was supposed to have placed?
Exactly how I see it, albeit, I like to simplify things a bit.
As surveyors we tend to have the notion that those positions placed in the ground are there to make our replacements easier and agreeable with past efforts, realistically, they were placed for the layman to rely on.
As R/W markers I say accept them after you're comfortable they fit the pattern of others that are up and down station, "throwing out" the ones that don't fit. One thing about a best fit solution is the results will change every time you add another found monument. Where do you stop?
BajaOR, post: 414513, member: 9139 wrote: As R/W markers I say accept them after you're comfortable they fit the pattern of others that are up and down station, "throwing out" the ones that don't fit. One thing about a best fit solution is the results will change every time you add another found monument. Where do you stop?
Yep. I wonder why the general rule is and has always been, monuments set to mark boundaries, and having been recognized as marking boundaries (since biblical times) has controlled over course and distance. The intent is what was done and accepted on the ground, not on the "plan".
I would agree that an undisturbed dot markers mark the r/w (especially a 6"x6"x12" above ground concrete, inscribed with R/W). Then I moved to Oregon and one of the first comments I remember from an old time Surveyor (and the general survey community) was that " we seldom accept the r/w monuments because they were set by contractors and not very accurately". Now I'm so confused. Local standard practice or what my good sense tells me??? It is so prevalent in Oregon that I just took a class put on by Bonneville Power Company that taught to use the centerline hubs/markers then the towers to establish the centerline to which then controls the sidelines and last evidence is the false calls to plss corners. I've always wondered if they taught that class because so many surveyors were taught the opposite when working on the State Hwys and not to rely on the dot r/w markers and start at the plss corner and put the cl alignment back in from the false calls. My 2 cents, Jp
P.s. To the punctuation and spelling nazis, kiss off.:)
Well, it certainly IS much easier and cheaper to hold those big 'ol concrete markers, standing up so tall and proud, wherever they may be, than to actually put in the time and effort to reproduce the original baseline, or centerline, from which the boundaries of the appropriation are described.
If you fellers say that's the right and proper way to survey - I'm in!
There is the "king gets his" theory. If the original grant declares fifty feet each, then that means a right of way 100.00000' nothing more, nothing less. If you recover monuments at 99.91 you reject them
MightyMoe, post: 414545, member: 700 wrote: There is the "king gets his" theory. If the original grant declares fifty feet each, then that means a right of way 100.00000' nothing more, nothing less. If you recover monuments at 99.91 you reject them
The only place I've found where that applies in when proportioning - the method of last resort.. I've never found any authoritative source that says to reject the intended and relied upon monuments in favor of proportioning.
Yes, I was also taught to give the full ROW no matter what, even if it means rejecting original monuments. BUT, I've never found any legal authority to do so. Has anyone found the legal authority and precedence to uphold the theory?
Around here the common practice and belief is that the ROW monuments along the state highways etc are 'junk' and not correct.
I tend to be more in the belief that they should stand as set in the ground although going against local practice will make me look like the oddball when 3 different surveyors opinions agree against mine....
Some time ago, (maybe it still goes on in some states) Highway boundaries were set by State employees or contractors and licensed surveyors were not part of the process. In our DOT a Licensed Surveyor is required to determine the boundary and must stamp to his plans. The DOT doesn't (or shouldn't) be dictating to a licensed surveyor how to determine the ROW. A licensed land surveyor is licensed to protect the public interests (State Property and the adjoiner's properties), and I think most of us strive to do that.
And who cares if you measure 99.91' between two original monuments that were set 100' apart? I don't think the King even knows about it, (even if he says he does).
I don't think the State is entitled to sympathy for their own shoddy methods setting those things. It's not like the adjoining property owner set them.
Sometimes the concrete monuments are the best evidence left of the mythical "engineer's centerline."
It is not for the Land Surveyor to make a legal determination that a party's good faith detrimental reliance counts for nothing. The Deed conveys title in the subject matter, the precise location of the boundaries of the subject matter is revealed through a much broader evidentiary hunt and analysis.
On the other hand, no brightline rule with respect to concrete monuments can be made, each one should be examined in light of all the evidence and surrounding circumstances. This is true of any class of evidence, Courts will never make a rule such as "concrete monuments always control." Their rules are abstract. A case which says a rebar controls because of a given legal principle may be the same principle which makes the concrete monument controlling.
The old and continuing argument that we are only trying to save effort does not hold water. What we are trying to do is answer the question of location which can be much more complex than simply sitting on the centerline, turning ninety and pulling over precisely 100.00 feet.
Stephen Calder's article is really good:
http://www.writingondawal.com/MeridianDisplay/Articles/01RightOfWay.pdf
This is the way I see it. Guy owns a piece of property. Dot takes a variable width sliver for bus turn out. The dot monuments the angle points and begin and end where the sliver joins the standard r/w. They file a survey in the public record showing the newly created r/w and monuments that represent that r/w. The guy then hires a wall contractor to build a very expensive wall, and he strings from monument to monument correctly and builds the wall correctly holding the tangent parts of wall 0.10' off the string line onto the property owners side and puts decorative curves in the wall at the angle points in such a way that the original monuments are preserved and not effected by the construction. And the property owner has state of the art surveillance cameras recording everything from the placement of the monuments to the string lines pulled over the monuments and checks the mason continued to make while constructing and as-building. 5 years go by and there is a GOD sanctioned ADA (Americans with disabilities act) compliance issue because the distance between the ownerÛªs wall and a signal pole does not meet the GOD sanctioned minimum distance. So the DOT surveyor (New one right out of college) and with his brand new coordinate system and millimeter gps system works up the centerline and r/w from the "Controlling Monuments, 5"brass disks marked "DOT CP 10007 and 10008" set a year earlier on the newest derived dot coordinate system , and 5000' feet away from the site and translates rotates and masturbates the 5 year old "local datum plane" coordinates with the high powered software he learned to use in college 18 months earlier and he declares that the monuments set 5 years earlier are between 3" to 1'-6" out of position (towards the centerline) because "they must of been disturbed during construction", therefore the wall is encroached into the "KINGS R/W" by 2" to 1'-5". But this owner has more money than the state (State retirement system has the state broke) and they go to court. No way in hell the KING GETS HIS! Chances of this happening about 0. So being a business man an weighing liability and who has the power we typically give the king his. Like I said 'IÛªm so confused". Jp
[SARCASM]p.s. punctuation and spelling Nazis, Kiss off[/SARCASM] 🙂
Then there is the station issue, often the right of way may have a tangent that is tens of feet short or long, going into a curve that is short or long also if you use the monuments. It gets real messy as you push the tangents and curves around to "fit" an old taking.
And don't forget that the surveyors of old highways were often true north, so the bearings adjust as you go east-west.
Putting the perfect math on the ground along a highway can get challenging, but DOT's are full of engineers..........;)
Brian Allen, post: 414527, member: 1333 wrote: Yep. I wonder why the general rule is and has always been, monuments set to mark boundaries, and having been recognized as marking boundaries (since biblical times) has controlled over course and distance. The intent is what was done and accepted on the ground, not on the "plan".
I agree BUT the attorney from the Attorney General's office (in Georgia) that I heard speak said that the highway IS the monument from which all deeds are referenced (X feet left or right of station Y+YY). I have seen too many monuments that I or one of my crews staked set feet from the stake. I use R/W monuments only as indicators of the general vicinity.
Andy
Several years ago, a GDOT (Georgia DOT) Engineer told me.... "The road itself is the controlling monument. Split the roadway pavement to establish the centerline, then measures the distances either side of that centerline to establish your R/W lines"
I was preparing a boundary survey on a parcel that the existing state highway that had recently widen and the R/W monuments were less than a month old. There was discrepancies between the R/W monuments and the R/W plans that varied by 10-15 feet. I contacted the district DOT office to get more info and was told that statement.....
