I know how many here like to spend a great deal of time analyzing things large and small, and as I was adding another quadrangle to my never ending control network, some recent threads on the matter raised a question.
First I should preface the question by stating that I'm asking about disturbed monuments, not surveyors; I'm pretty sure I have that one down.
One of the corners of my wife's property is a galvanized 1/2" galvanized pipe, driven into the ground close to the base of a 24" maple that has been there much longer than the pipe. As a result, it's now leaning away from the tree about 12 degrees.
So, a two part question:
When a surveyor comes across such a situation, does it matter whether a monument is "disturbed" by nature or by man as to pertains to its intended location, other than the possibility that, if by man, it may be of nefarious or ill informed intention?
Part 2: If a monument is found leaning so, where is the "correct" location? Current Top of the pipe? Where it enters the ground? Where the bottom end of the pipe is, and probably was when it was driven?
I've read that surveyors may "restore", or "reset" monuments, but what do you use for the basis of such restoration and how disturbed is too disturbed to bother correcting it?
Ok, that was three parts. My bad.
I'll go first since first is usually the worst....
If the monument is disturbed and not in its original location then it wouldn't control. (Unless the 'monument' is a natural body of water but that's for a different discussion)
I know some on here do reset the pipes or monuments they find by digging beside them until they can plumb them so they are straight up again.
That being said I usually try and locate them where they would be if they were plumb, most of the time which would be where the bottom is but not always.
"Disturbed by man or by nature...does it matter?"
No. Yes. Probably. It depends. 😉 But seriously, that's a really good question.
To me, if a monument is still occupying space, as near as may be determined, close to it original intended location...the answer would be no.
I have had several finds of pins and pipes in almost the exact circumstances you described above, in sprawling tree roots. The one pipe in particular I'm recalling was in elm roots, however. Less than an inch was actually visible and with a sharp-shooter blade I removed the bark and cambium enough to tell the pipe was leaning. My "surveyed" point was the top of the pipe.
Back at the "lab" the geometry indicated the top of the pipe didn't fit the other evidence I had discovered as well as possibly a point further down in the roots, in the direction the pipe was leaning. To me this was an indication the pipe had probably been disturbed by the tree growth. I noted this on the survey and did nothing to the pipe but tie some flagging on the end of it.
Would I have "rehabilitated" it if it weren't grown into the roots? Maybe. I have found "leaners" and "spinners" in my career and replaced them in situ with my own capped rebar; noting this on the survey.
So I guess it really doesn't matter to me if it were man or nature that affected the corner monument.
When I find a disturbed monument, I locate its existing top location, where it bends to go to vertical and spin around in a few circles to see if it is not quite vertical.
Then I will straighten a bent rod and restore a disturbed rod, pipe or other workable monument to where it was called to be.
Last year I found an original iron rod monument under and among the roots of a 10iln live oak along side of a street in a city subdivision.
I had found 3 other original rods and one was a replacement.
When I had used the locations of the other original monuments as control, this one in the roots was around a tenth of a foot off in a position that fell in the direction that the bottom of the rod was headed, mol.
Was not going to stress the tree by cutting roots out to get the rod vertical again and risk it dying.
I used that calculated location for my drawing and report because it matched record and did fall on a part of the rod where it was located under the roots.
Isn't it illegal to take out, adjust or move any other companies pin???
It's not a camera, post: 373426, member: 10608 wrote: Isn't it illegal to take out, adjust or move any other companies pin???
TANGENT:
Who owns the physical monument? The owner who paid for the survey? Adjoiners? The public? The surveyor who placed the monument? All surveyors?
DDSM:-S
On numerous occasions, I have found Stones, Posts, Pipes, Pipes w/Brass Caps, etc. alongside trees of various sizes and ages.
In most cases one can verify the position of the monument relative to the Corner using the other accessories returned in the Original Survey (Bearing Trees/Objects/etc.).
Sometimes one will have to step out somewhat farther from the monument in question, inorder to collect more evidence.
Sometimes one just has to use Professional Judgment (and experience) to make the call.
Just because a tree does what it does (get bigger around), does not (IMO) MOVE the CORNER (just the monument).
Now there are other related (and semi-related) scenarios relating to the "movement" of monuments by "natural means" (fault displacement, land "slides," whatever), but that is a varmint of a different color (usually).
Loyal
Loyal hit on it. What we are after is the location of the corner, which may or may not be where the monument currently is located. The question we have to answer is what is the best available evidence of the location of the corner?
The question in the OP is why we need education and experience. It depends.
The more difficult case is where the marker is on a clay slope that is drifting downhill with each wet-and-dry cycle. The marker is maybe in the top 36 or 48 inches of the soil and that whole zone is moving. The main clue as to movement from inspection of the marker itself is that it is leaning well off plumb. However, just straightening the marker is a fairly unsuccessful way of of recovering the original position of the maker. About the best that can be done is to approximate the direction of movement and use that vector in connection with ties to other stable markers to reestablishe the corner. This is where coordinates perform very well.
The folks who like fences will be sad to learn that the fences also slide downslope in the same conditions, so they are no help at all.
Anyone remember Paul Cook from Californy who used to play around on this or the previous board? He lived in an area, with or without earthquakes, that kept moving downhill at all times. Slowly, of course, but definitely moving.
I think that this thread demonstrates quite well the "Doctrine of It Depends".
I've found pipes that I can tell were hit by a blade or disc and are bent about 0.5' down from the top. If you dig down, you can see the rest of the pipe is pretty well plumb. You can "spin it" or pull it straighten and rest or whatever, but a reliable location for the original position can usually be established.
I've found pipes leaning (usually hit and in softer ground) where the bottom of the pipe is still pretty close to the original position.
I've found pipes that are slipping downhill and there isn't really a way to tell the original position.
And don't forget roots, moisture, tectonic movement, and aliens.
For me, I try to take what I call the "holistic approach" and consider everything as simply a part of the "whole". I try to take all of my surveys a "step further out" from just the piece(s) of land I'm considering to see how they fit into a "bigger picture". Because every measured position, every monument, every distance called in a deed or shown on a map, all of that information, is subject to error. Determining how much error is reasonable to a given piece of data is an important step into making a good determination of where these boundaries that we are continually locating actually are.
Leaving out those instances where the land all around the corner moves with the monument (i.e. earthquake), it doesn't matter what moves the monument. If it gets moved off the corner, it no longer marks the corner.
When it comes to monuments leaning in rocky soil, near trees or other objects which may have caused the monument to move, I locate both the top and the point at which is appears to straighten out, or the base. Depending upon the conditions, it may be that it got pushed over, or it may be that the guy setting it kept trying to beat it into place while keeping it straight only to watch it tilt farther over with every smack, and no amount of effort short of jackhammers or explosives was going to enable him to set it straight at the proper location. In such cases, in certain regions, it is not uncommon to bend the top few inches to get the cap to the proper location over the top of some obstruction that is at or just a little under the surface.
In a case of being up against a tree for many years, it's far more likely that the tree pushed the top of the mon off the corner. Set reference mons a few feet down each line if practical.
