Difference between corner monuments and fences

my thoughts, of which are of high enough quality that they, along with $5 might get you cup of coffee in some places, are that the original monuments were defined and set by a licensed, or somehow certified, surveyor. The monuments should hopefully have been described in a way that they can be picked out by a modern professional surveyor. A fence was built by a landowner, or a hired hand, or maybe a kid on punishment detail. It may have been built and rebuilt one or more times since the first one was placed. While a surveyor hopefully took care to place his monument right where he wanted it, the fence builder may have come upon a large rock, and chose to move his corner post a few feet farther away. Again, the surveyor hopefully took time and care to run straight lines, where the fence builder could of let his fences meander. When I write my metes and bounds I choose the words "thence being generally followed by a fence" because I want the reader of the future to know I meant a straight line, no matter what the fence did.

Sometimes fences carry more weight than monuments, too. It depends.
Sometimes the fence is built to the monument. Sometimes the monument is pulled out to build the fence.
Sometimes there never was a monument and the fence is it.
Sometimes the monument is in the "right" place according to the deed (and in careful consideration of its fit with the surrounding monuments) and hasn't been moved by fencebuilders or adjoiners, and yet the neighbor has enclosed it within a fence for greater than the number of years needed for some common law boundary principle to toll, and now that monument isn't the corner any more, the fence is. Only that's not entirely so until a licensed surveyor maps the situation and documents the history so that the client can take it to court and gain written title to that which he previously had gained unwritten rights through occupation. (see Black's: DROIT DROIT) Hopefully all this leads to a Ring Ring for one of our local RPLS'rs and the setting of a new monument at, in, or on the fence, with a license number on the tag left as a bread crumb to finding the recorded survey, or in a non-recording state, the surveyor, and hopefully the recorded court documents about the change in title, area, boundary description, etc. As a recent thread showed, some surveyors want to have a more precise point and so might not put a nail-and-tag in or on the post, opting instead for a rebar at the bottom, or a more substantial monument with a cap and a dimple at a known and reported offset ...

In wearing my new landowner hat and pondering fences, I have pondered that, for a surveyor, a rebar is a nice precise point. For a landowner it's a cryptic little thing that's gonna get buried and lost, and really only useful as a marker for where to put the fencepost.

There's a quote, the attribution of which I ought look up again, that goes something like, "The office of the description is to help locate the monument."
If there is a monument, and it can be shown to be original and undisturbed in relation to the other monuments called directly or indirectly, the monument's physical location holds, and that's why we hopefully report both the record measurements and the new measurements we make when we witness the monuments.

Sometimes the monuments were never set, or have gone missing, or are buried nearby and nobody bothers with a shovel or a metal detector, and a new monument sprouts up at the record angle and distance from the last found monument.

It always depends because sometimes it's different.

addendum: you'd probably enjoy reading the manual for Dennis Drumm's Primacode Transform
http://www.primacode.com/transform.htm

Monuments are placed to show the position of a change in parcels and ownership.
They are permanent locations placed by surveyors, land owners and judgement of the courts to define the location where one property ends and another begins.

Fences are fences.
They are built as a barrier and as a convenience.
They are usually never rebuilt in the same place.
Many fences are built to satisfy the owners use and the location defines the limits decided by the owner.
The owner may leave ample space between their fence and the property boundary for maintenance and/or unhindered entry to other portions of their land.

Fence may become a boundary by actions of adjoining property owners and when indicated by adjoining property calls in their respected deeds.
They can also become in conflict between adjoining property owners when true monument locations are ignored and/or overlooked and assumptions made in haste.

Fences are near the end of the list when it comes to evidence for the location of a boundary.

:8ball:

It all depends upon what the original parties to the boundary intended.

In the west, fences generally have less weight because they often follow convenient alignments or were built for a purpose other than to be a boundary. It does occasionally happen that the fence was built to be a boundary.

When a fence was constructed to separate specific properties along a varied and/or sinuous course, the fence is the boundary that hopefully has something else defining precisely where the fence is believed to start and where it is believed to end. A standard, relatively straight fence that runs from here to there is probably not the defined boundary but, rather, a means to assist in locating the monuments at each end thereof. Common fences are a good indicator of where long-established rights may begin and end.

Now there is a business opportunity, Joe's Surveying and Fencing. Think how much more weight a fence would carry if a surveyor installed it for you along with a survey. Hub Northing where are you?

Mike Falk, post: 390475, member: 442 wrote: Hub Northing where are you?

Another thread where the next generation wants to learn, spoiled by memes.

A surveyor running a fence business would be a practical, useful thing. Right livelihood, even.

half bubble, post: 390483, member: 175 wrote: Another thread where the next generation wants to learn, spoiled by memes.

A surveyor running a fence business would be a practical, useful thing. Right livelihood, even.

I would like to somehow incorporate the monument into the fence corner post. Maybe a steel post with a 5/8" threaded brass stud on top so you could just screw the prism on it.

Doing builder work, I have observed how fences are installed...

• fence builder locates rod
• augers a hole on the rod, pulling the rod out in the process
• puts post in hole
• pours concrete around post
• puts rod next to post in semi-set concrete

And this is only for the fresh fence installation! If the lot is 30 years old, it may have a couple of fence tear-downs and rebuilds using the same process.

So, for platted suburban neighborhoods in my area, back monuments are usually difficult to find and useless. The monument either bears, or we just witness a fence post.

half bubble, post: 390483, member: 175 wrote: Another thread where the next generation wants to learn, spoiled by memes.

IKR?

Rfc

Being one that is located and licensed in your neck of the woods, i will comment about your question.

When we are tasked with retracing boundaries that are described as being by the land of x and by the land of y we do give established fences and occupation great weight when establishing said lines. Stone walls are the best evidence of the original parties establishment of the boundary. Wire fences established and maintained are second on the list. Those who came before us knew more than we do about the location of ancient lines. I can read deeds from 1790 all day but ignoring evidence perpetuated by generations of land owners is a recipe for disaster.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

A fence may or may not be evidence of a boundary location. The evidence of a boundary location is evaluated and weighed in order to form an opinion as to the most probable location of the boundary.

Sometimes it's easy to hold a fence, when it's a stonewall or old barbed wire on rotting wooden posts, on a large parcel, with no other monuments found, and the configuration generally fits the description.

Sometimes it's easy to reject a fence, when it's a shiny new vinyl stockade that's 2' off the line formed by rods found and called for, on a half acre platted subdivision lot.

Sometimes it's not so easy.