"Check All Existing Conditions Prior To Stakeout"

You and your boss need to have a conference call with the Engineer of record to discuss what has gone on and possible solutions. It may hold the project up a day or so, but it puts the re-design squarely back where it belongs and you get to be the good guy.

I ain't field fitting anything unless the engineer has an addendum. I've gone bare knuckles 12 rounds with these SOB's over this. How I feed my family and my kids college fund is way more important than owning some concrete.

Consequently, I don't do very much of this work.

I did a topo for a new building one time. I showed the as-built location of all storm and sanitary sewers and their applicable easements. The engineer designed the building in the easement. I told him about it and he told me to use his cad file and just shift it.

Hell No! I told him to redesign it and print and send me new maps stamped for construction before I'd do a damn thing. He didn't like it, but during the layout, I was the only one with the correct plans (idiot engineer didn't send any new prints to the GC). To top it off, he changed the finished floor. The GC and I about came to blows on the site when I said he was wrong on his finished floor.

After he threw his plans down in the dirt and screamed at me to "See what the plans say boy!" I calmly said (that's a lie) "Yes, but your effing date is a month before mine so my plans trump your plans and you need to get off my a$$ and call the engineer and architect!" About 10 minutes later and multiple phone calls, he relented but never apologized. Seriously, it was about three sentences before I was about to hit that big SOB in the head with a 2lb hammer. 🙂

Never back down from having the liability on someone else in construction. I hate construction.

I would locate the curb and send it to the designing engineer of record.

Let them revise the plans and then you can work from those.

IF they are DEMANDING a "field fix", I'll stake it out PER PLAN, and tell them to "go for it". Build it anyway you want to, I'll as-built it for you later. I WILL NOT DEVIATE FROM APPROVED PLANS, they can, to their hearts content.

This actually happens all the time. More times than not, it all turns out OK.

Ok, you relocate the curb, great! Now they will not approve a PO for the time you spent on relocating it because it was in the contract and you eat your time and do not get paid for it. If you try to fight it, the court of law WILL side with the contractor because it was part of your contract to "field verify all existing conditions". In reality, especially now a days you cut your prices and services so much to get the job there is no extra time to re-visit the site two or three times to fix the existing conditions. Another loss for the surveyors, more money in the pockets of the contractor. There has to be a better way.

> "Surveyor is responsible for checking all existing conditions prior to stakeout".

I guess your employer should have had you out there to check existing conditons, control and the plans before staking. (In an ideal world)

As for field fitting, that depends on the nature and extent of the discrepancy, the experience of the party chief, the relationship with the engineer and company policy amoung other things. Sometimes you can fix it in the field, sometimes you can't.
Don't just stake it from the plans or let the contractor tell you how to solve the problem. It's your liability, not his.

At the very least I would calm the contractor down a bit and call the office.
At worst I would leave the site (If the contractor won't calm down) and call the office and engineer.

First tie in everything that affects your staking so you can explain the problem.
Then, without assigning blame inform the parties of the problem and get it solved.

On the other hand I've been involved in more than a few situations somewhat like Kris describes.

DJJ

The surveyor that did the pre-conditioned survey, but you now are expected to relocate and "field fit" (aka design) the structures to fit. Not in our expertise as surveyors or the scope of work.

I have never staked any construction that we didn't tie into the existing structures before we proceeded to do stakeout. IMO making engineering plans "work" on the ground is exactly what our expertise is for. It sounds like a reasonable request to check the control and see how that ties in with the prior construction. What kind of construction staking would you perform without doing this? All construction is "field fitting" to a certain degree and is best resolved by doing what Kris did and communicate with the Engineer on what the conditions call for. Tapering some curb/gutter to fit the existing road can probably be field fitted but relocating an entire building or structure is another matter. If it all got constructed per the plans without deviation why would we need as-builts?

"Checking" and "correcting" are two separate items. Field fit for a couple of tenths maybe but NOT to correct an obvious error.

I know from the plans who the engineer is.

Some are better than others. I know which ones use short cuts and which ones do a thorough job.

Bid accordingly.

What gets me are the buried utilities. Sometimes the locations and elevations are a best guess. But the separations still need to be held. It's difficult to "pothole" every utility crossing to make sure it will all work, but, that's our job. (if we sign the contract like that).

Good Luck!

> "Checking" and "correcting" are two separate items. Field fit for a couple of tenths maybe but NOT to correct an obvious error.

That's right on, Sacker. The contract requires you to "check" the existing conditions. That's necessary for any construction layout (even when the contract doesn't require it). There's a big difference between "checking" and "redesigning" the planned improvements.

I'd "check" the existing conditions, then contact the design engineer when it's discovered that the "check" failed. Let them decide what to do about it, then stake the amended plan.

JBS

Read the contract fully before signing and discuss items with the contractor that don't fit with what you anticipated. You will most likely take a loss on this one to locate the offending data and send it to the engineer. This also may be an opportunity to market yourself to the engineer if they do not have in-house surveying to maybe work with them on a future project.

Jason

I'm in the same camp as sacker2 & JB on this one- checking to make sure the plans are on the same page as the existing conditions- yes. Correcting plan mistakes and field fitting- a big no-no here in Colorado- you would then be practicing outside the expertise of your license.

It sounds like you signed their contract. So did they sign your contract?

Just curious.

It sounds like you should not be liable for fixing the problem, only describing it.

However, there might be additional liability for delays if you didn't describe the problem in a timely manner.

> It sounds like you signed their contract. So did they sign your contract?
>
> Just curious.

Yes, we do have a contract we make EVERYONE SIGN no matter the size of the job, or we discuss it in email to make sure all liability and scope of our work is understood clearly.

We do not have anything written in our contract, that I know of, saying correcting existing conditions provided to this firm from an outside source is not included in this contract, maybe we should? Question is, which contract is superior if we do that?

Are you even licensed to do the civil design? In my state, you technically cannot re-design if you are only licensed as a surveyor.

Your contract appears to only bind you to identifying deficiencies, not fix them.

Myself, I love those situations. I have both the engineering and surveying licenses, and when I find someone else's mistake that needs immediate fixing, and I'm the one in the driver's seat to make those changes, it is an immediate contract change order and pretty much name my price. But even better is the reputation I gain as a "go-to" firm.

>Question is, which contract is superior if we do that?
>
You should never have two contracts... Nothing but confusion (and excessive cost) to interpret.

JBS

> So now you are stuck between trying to make the construction manager happy, while not getting paid, and possibly doing something illegal by "field fitting" structures.

Nothing illegal about field fitting a design to existing conditions. A "Plan" is just that, a concept of what will become a final product. It is just like a survey map that is a guide to monuments placed.

> "Surveyor is responsible for checking all existing conditions prior to stakeout".

Tell them you did and it was S.N.A.F.U 😉

Paul, for a Calif. practioner, it is discouraging to hear you don't realize the limitations on your license.

The curb, gutter and sidewalk are infrastructure that are unique to the civil engineering discipline. To deviate from the engineer's design is paramount to performing civil engineering design without a license. If the engineer's design is defective, a surveyor should only inform the engineer and owner of the discrepancies. To perform corrective action, again, is practicing civil engineering without a license in California.

Curb, gutter and sidewalk often have several design parameters that fall under the realm of civil engineering. One is the hydraulic consideration, as curb and gutter and the associated road shoulders are necessarily sized for profile and cross slope to handle the anticipated flow rate from the design storm. Any change to flowline profile, shoulder width and cross slope require review of the flow spread rate. A surveyor is legally not qualified to do so in California.

Changes in curb location also effect shoulder and roadway widths, cross slopes and superelevations. All of these are, again, part of the civil engineering discipline.

Another consideration in California is the need to meet the ADA requirements of Title 24, and/or federal ADA requiremetns. Again, another aspect which is design consideration unique to the engineering and archetectural disciplines.

So, please, consider your limitations before proceeding in altering any design without direct oversight of the engineer of record.

CC

Do you always have a problem following a simple train of thought? The subject of my post was the legality or illegality of field fitting improvements.

Show me a Calif State law that addresses that issue.

Next time you shoot, try aiming better.