Well, this is a new one. I got an email from real estate friend, with a title commitment attached, and one of the requirements of title commitment is that a surveyor must certify that the legal description can be accurately surveyed. Then it goes on to point out that due to past Scribner's errors, there are two major mistakes in the current legal description. One bearing is off by 9 degrees, and one entire line of the legal was left off the current deed.
This, BTW, is a project I have not been involved in, so the mistakes were not mine. They are asking me to write a letter stating that the property can still be surveyed accurately, in spite of the errors.
My opinion is that if the mistake was a typing/copying error, and can be resolved by looking at past deeds, neighbor's deeds, plats, etc, then it can be surveyed, and the legal description should be corrected for the new transaction. I just never had anyone ask for this in writing. Not sure how to respond here. I don't think they want me to do a survey, they just want confirmation that property can be surveyed in the future.
First, ask them if this is "billable".
well, my BS detector just went through the roof on that one, TPR. If they can get the older deed, why would they want to use on that they know is screwed up?? Are they trying to avoid an actual survey? Is there some ongoing dispute that you don't know about and will be embroiled in by signing such a document? No thanks, I wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole.
Andy
> My opinion is that if.....
That's a big if...
If it is just a box to check, then I would check no.....
As I recall, there are two types of ambiguities, patent and latent. One can be determined by looking at the deed, the other doesn't become obvious until you do the field work. It seems to me that a person would have to survey the property to make sure the legal is good and doesn't have a latent ambiguity.
I clarified this with the title agent. What happened was the title agent caught the two errors and fixed them for a new deed for a new transaction. They don't want a statement that it's "surveyable", they want a statement that the corrected deed describes the same parcel as the current deed. Also, I looked at all the deeds online and it just seems like ordinary typing/copying errors. In one case a "0" was typed as "9". In the other case, it wasn't an entire line that was deleted, apparently "50'" was retyped as "TO", and therefore they thought an entire 50' call was deleted.
[sarcasm]"Anything is possible, can they afford what it will cost to get a real survey"[/sarcasm]
My BS meter is registering also. Obviously there is something wrong and it appears they are asking you to say it can be surveyed from what they have in hand.
In actual terms, it can be surveyed. It will take ample research of prior descriptions of the property and of all the surrounding properties to see where things went wrong, plus and actual survey made on the ground to see what actually is there.
[sarcasm]"Don't drink the Kool-Aid they are serving"[/sarcasm]
Getting a certification from you without an actual survey is what it looks like they are wanting.
Contact them as get some straight talk about what they are really wanting to accomplish and at what lengths they are willing to go.
0.02
:good:
Tell them you'll apply the deed to the ground at an hourly rate, and then you'll let them know.
> ....What happened was the title agent caught the two errors and fixed them for a new deed for a new transaction. They don't want a statement that it's "surveyable", they want a statement that the corrected deed describes the same parcel as the current deed.........
If they wanted to know if it was surveyable then I think you would need to survey it to find out.
If they want to know if the legal description is legal; then I would think they would ask an attorney.....
well, this is new procedure but it is their answer to an old problem, and it is the wave of our future.
last week, i asked a Title Company Examiner to get me some deeds (older in his county) and then tell me if there were any different people in title since my reference was 1959 for him to search and if there had been any probate partitions. (large tracts)
while we were still talking on the phone, he made the comment to me
"That is something surveyors do."
and with a stunned silence, i finally said yes, we often do, 'But this is something that title examiners do also and what we often need when we have no search basis online.
There are no longer any title examiners; by and large; that can but two deeds together on the same property, let alone, make a comparison of a deed to the adjoiner deed.
Read the deed and sent them their letter to salve their conscious. This is their way or something they can point to when you say: By the way, there is a 20 food building encroachment on the west side of the property. That has nothing to do with the deed being 'surveyable' it has to do with ducking responsibility.
for some us ole folks, this "i want you to be responsible for my screwup" is getting intolerable
better check closely to see it this puts you in the insurace business??????🙁
I really don't think there is any bad intentions on the part of the title company. I think the issue is that in order to maintain the "chain of title" the want to make sure that the incorrect legal and corrected legal could not be confused down the road such that someone could try to make a claim that they still own a portion of the property, or whatever.
I'm kind of on the fence with this one. I can see all the reason why I shouldn't, but ... The civil law definition in Florida of an adequate legal description is one that can be surveyed by a surveyor, so I would think it would fall within the domain of a surveyor to say that a legal description that contains typographical errors still defines the same parcel as the "corrected" version. Plus, as Tommy said, they'll pay me to review the legals and write the letter. It's not a free-be for a friend.
still sounds to me like you'll be sticking your neck out for that.... IMHO
In 45 years of deed research and platting property, I do not remember one time running into property that could not be surveyed. All land is surveyable, just requires deed research, field research and doing geometry. Wait! Isn't that called "surveying"? I thought so.
We can survey it by intent and let the Legal Eagles fight it out. Determine what is owned and put it on the ground. Typos are solved everyday.
Hmmmm...let's break it down..
> Well, this is a new one. I got an email from real estate friend, with a title commitment attached, and one of the requirements of title commitment is that a surveyor must certify that the legal description can be accurately surveyed.
OK now, Merriam-Webster tells us these definitions:
sur·vey·able - adjective - ser?v?ebel
Definition of SURVEYABLE:
capable of being surveyed
sur·vey - verb - ser-?v?
Definition of SURVEY:
(transitive verb)
To determine and delineate the form, extent, and position of (as a tract of land)
by taking linear and angular measurements and by applying the
principles of geometry and trigonometry.
If the legal description does not close or contains ambiguities, one option would be to define or ascertain the ambiguous calls or legs of the tract by actually defining the adjoining boundaries. This would also require some research and professional judgment.
Soooo...strictly by definition the parcel cannot be deemed surveyable by itself. :snarky:
(yeah, I know, splittin' hairs)
I see why you feel the responsibility of this question. I personally wouldn't want some title examiner deciding what is "surveyable" or not. For one thing the may have a dollar amount as a cut off. In other words if it costs more than $xxxxx, it is not cost effective and therefore not "surveyable" in their terms.
But, what are your choices? Just "yes" or "no"? Or is there a comment section where you can say, "yes, but the current deed in deed book## page## has typographical errors in the description. See correct description in deed book ## page ##."
I realize there is a more professional way to say that, but you see what I mean. My point is I would be inclined to say yes it is "surveyable", but would want them to understand that I was not implying the current description is 100% accurate. I'm fine with helping someone cover their rear, so long as the blanket is big enough to cover mine at the same time.
P.S. Wendell, why does the spell check on a survey website not like the word surveyable? Haha. Just kidding!
Hmmmm...let's break it down..
Response: I would have to survey it first to determine if it's surveyable.
I would approach it slightly differently. I would have the Title Co provide all the documents and research that I would require, then I would assess the situation and determine what I would have to do to straighten the mess out. Working in conjunction with the Title Co. (and if necessary, an attorney), who would be better suited to solve a description problem than a surveyor? I certainly wouldn't certify that the Title Co. prepared description was adequate without the research necessary.
I think you'll find that the attorney has the chain of title, that should meet the requirement, if not they need a survey. Sounds like they want someone else to kick their can down the road just to be safe. I would let them kick their own can down the road. No pun intended.;-)
Hmmmm...let's break it down..
It seems to me that
"the legal description can be accurately surveyed."
is intended to mean
"The property can be accurately reproduced on the ground"
Whoever wrote that wasn't a surveyor and didn't write it for a surveyor.
I don't think that deed meets the requirement if it doesn't close.