This was probably the most disheartening phone call I've ever gotten from a licensed surveyor in Texas. It began with a message to the effect that he'd found some boundary markers I'd set fifteen years ago with my name and registration number on them. Nothing wrong with that as a point of departure for the call. I share information with other surveyors as long as I don't think they will abuse it in some way that will make us both look stupid, me for enabling their misadventure.
When I called back to see what I could tell him about the work, he was on his cell phone and at the site in question. After several questions, it turned out that it was a tract that I was fairly familiar with, a lot in a subdivision that had been platted by a very competent surveyor named T.A. Jackson back in the 1960's, if I recall correctly.
Fifteen years ago, I'd been hired to make a topographic survey and in the course of the work had realized that a boundary survey made in connection with a real estate closing shortly before I was hired was such a total FUBAR that I went ahead and resurveyed the boundary of the lot. Mr. Jackson's work in laying out the lots as shown on the subdivison plat from the 1960's could be retraced and remained a good enough representation of the actual shape and location of the lot, that I didn't have particularly any problem once I'd removed three or four brand new rebars that had been driven so close to where an original stake was that the magnetic signature of the new rebar concealed the original.
So, I'd found what were plainly the original markers shown on the plat and I'd replaced three or four boundary markers in positions that were sufficiently close to those shown on the plat that I didn't think any future surveyor would have a problem finding them. Surveyor on Phone said he was having a hard time finding the roughly ten markers at the various angle points of the lot, so I told him what they were - Mr. Jackson had set mostly short 3/4" rebars for markers, a somewhat unusual choice for Austin in the 1960's - and mentioned the tack in a cedar plug that I'd found in a drill hole in a limestone outcrop that was almost certainly Mr. Jackson's work as well.
In the course of our conversation, I discovered that a large part of the problem was that he was out trying to find boundary markers, but without actually having a copy of the subdivision plat in hand. That bit of information didn't sink in at first, but I hadn't misunderstood. He was out trying to hunt up some corners without actually having a copy of the frigging plat of record that created the boundaries in question.
I don't hesitate to share information with surveyors who are putting in a good effort, but somehow not having a copy of the plat wasn't getting anywhere close to "good effort". In fact, everything I heard kept the FUBAR needle pegged, including him being the surveyor of record for one of the mortgage survey mills and "running" half a dozen crews in more than one city.
Somewhere along the line, it all came together. The fellow who was calling worked for a company that advertises surveying any residential lot in the county for $350 with a two-day turnaround. This property is only worth about $3,000,000, so obviously more than $350 would break the piggy bank on any transaction in which the property was involved.
I told him that once he actually got a copy of the subdivision plat and really began the survey, if he ran into any real difficulty, I'd be glad to help with information in my files. I didn't tell him that what it sounded as if he was doing was throwing his surveying license into the air to see if the wind was blowing. I suppose that a better surveyor would have invited him over to his office for an up close and personal estimate of the chances of him being able to remain a professional surveyor if the weather got breezy. I'm slowly discovering that there apparently is a school-bus-load or three of these absolutely clueless folks running around loose and have to wonder at what point the licensing laws in Texas began to enable this.
Sux, don't it?
We like to tell everyone we meet that all surveyors are highly professional and competent. Foolishness such as this makes it difficult to make the lofty claims without worrying about our nose growing.
" I told him that once he actually got a copy of the subdivision plat and really began the survey, if he ran into any real difficulty, I'd be glad to help with information in my files."
More than likely, he probably never got a copy of the plat, but had all the survey corners replaced before he ever left the job that afternoon...
> I told him that once he actually got a copy of the subdivision plat and really began the survey, if he ran into any real difficulty, I'd be glad to help with information in my files. I didn't tell him that what it sounded as if he was doing was throwing his surveying license into the air to see if the wind was blowing. I suppose that a better surveyor would have invited him over to his office for an up close and personal estimate of the chances of him being able to remain a professional surveyor if the weather got breezy. I'm slowly discovering that there apparently is a school-bus-load or three of these absolutely clueless folks running around loose and have to wonder at what point the licensing laws in Texas began to enable this.
I am not familiar with the licensing laws in Texas. However in GA, we have many survey regulations that are not enforced. The Surveyors that would consider themselves involved in a professional practice will meet or exceed the standard of care for each survey. Many others will cut every corner to reduce their effort and increase their revenue.They will basically do whatever they can get away with. In our state, our renewals go into the general fund. Our Board is underfunded and understaffed. Honestly, I do not want to see additional regulations until we have the mechanism to enforce our current regulations. Somehow surveyors need to stop waiting on the State and start regulating ourselves.
I think I saw the same crew last year, working in a subdivision with known problems. I stopped to tell them about an ALTA survey on that site done by an excellent surveyor a decade ago, and I told them how to get a copy. No, they were not interested. I was stunned, and made a note. Sure enough, I recently saw the development plan for that site, with the boundary wrong by 0.3 feet.
An old surveyor once told me "There are no "good decisions", only bad and mediocre decisions and the difference between them is research, unless you find the corner." That has stuck with me and remains part of my mantra.
FWIW, my last deposition had the opposing surveyor admit, under oath, that he had, in fact, surveyed the tract in question, and produced a plat and field notes, without actually having the deed to the tract he was surveying.
I more than feel your pain on this one.
R E S E A R C H ! ?
P F F F T !
:-/
> In the course of our conversation, I discovered that a large part of the problem was that he was out trying to find boundary markers, but without actually having a copy of the subdivision plat in hand. That bit of information didn't sink in at first, but I hadn't misunderstood. He was out trying to hunt up some corners without actually having a copy of the frigging plat of record that created the boundaries in question.
>
Why would one need it?
Usually original S/D maps do not have fences on them 😉
> Why would one need it?
> Usually original S/D maps do not have fences on them
I suppose that when you're trying to churn out a map that resembles the product of a survey and for the princely sum of $350, that streamlining the production processes at the survey factory is the key. Research obviously isn't in the cards for that price.
One interesting thing I learned from my short conversation with the surveyor who called is that apparently there is a sort of negative mentoring process that goes on at the quickie-dickie survey factories. The SITs learn that not doing all sorts of stuff is how the pros work as they move from mortgage mill to mortgage mill.
I know a few licensed individuals right here in my home town that definitely didn't meet the qualifications to sit for the exam. But they have a license.
In California, part of the requirement is to have licensed references sign to state that you have the minimum necessary office and field experience. But I've seen firsthand when there is a "favorite" in the office that the boss wants to be licensed, the boss will sign and stamp the reference stating that the person has the requisite experience.
Taking the exam is the least difficult part. Not to say that the exam is easy. But I remember college. You cram like crazy the night before the exam and then when you take it, you can do well enough to pass. But 2 days later, very little, if anything, remains in memory. So these people are passing the exam and getting their license even though they really have no idea how to actually do many of the things that a surveyor should know how to do.
I had one newly licensed LS at a company for which I used to work actually ask me, "What's the best way to get a recorded copy of a map?"
I stared at them for a minute and then said, "Did you really just ask me that question?" Then after staring a bit more to convey how absurd I thought they were, I answered, "I don't know, but you might start by contacting either the County Surveyor or the County Recorder."
It is sad that there are unscrupulous individuals that are out there doing business. Makes the rest of us just look bad.
Once worked for a surveyor who routinely sent me out to do surveys with nothing more than a hastily printed tax map. First stop of the day would be the muni to get all the plats I'd need. Had to leave the crew in the truck for an hour to pull their puds while I tracked down the records. He was the cheapest SOB I've ever worked for. How in the heii can I do my job if I don't have the plats? Just make something up? Truth was he was just a dirt bag POS, but got a lot of work because he was cheap, and I needed a job.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
How is that even possible??!!
" How is that even possible??"
I haven't the faintest idea of how it is done. I only know that if they can get all the corners staked, then they won't have to come back again. I didn't say that they would get it right, only that they would get some iron in the ground.
> " How is that even possible??"
>
> I haven't the faintest idea of how it is done. I only know that if they can get all the corners staked, then they won't have to come back again. I didn't say that they would get it right, only that they would get some iron in the ground.
I can tell you that one trick I've seen used by the survey factories charging ridiculously cheap fees and promising "quick turnaround" is to just cite the reference to an adjoining landowner's deed as reflected by the appraisal district records, while not of course actually bothering to examine the instrument itself.
That's pretty awful to hear. I don't know what to do about licensing. I would love to make sure that no one like that ever gets a license. But we had the guy from NCEES at our local chapter meeting, and he said last year as a nation we had 500 people attempt the surveying exam. A fair number of those were established surveyors trying to get licensed in new states.
I don't want a single unqualified surveyor, but we need more young surveyors. I hate to see more and more states going to requiring the degree.
"What's the best way to get a recorded copy of a map?"
That might be a legitimate question in some areas, where this jurisdiction has them on line for the last 20 years, that jurisdiction you have to go to an office, some other jurisdiction has them in a different office, and the company might have a subscription to one of the indexing services.
Yeah, I keep encouraging my crews to take the LSIT and work towards their license. For a lot of these young guys, they got into surveying because they like working outside and they like the overtime pay. They see me and my boss (the two licensed individuals at our office) that sit here in the office for long hours with no overtime. And they don't want that.
I'm not sure what would entice these field guys, who work hard and have a solid understanding of how to relate these pieces of paper with lines on them (plans and maps) to the actual positions on the ground, to actually get licenses. The only people I see pursuing their LS are those that have always been in the office.
That's a fair point, but the person in question had only ever worked in the one county. And to top it off, he had a cousin that worked at the County Public Works office.
And, if I find myself working in an unfamiliar county, all it takes is a look online to find the phone number of the County Recorder's office and you can ask them. And in my experience, they are quite nice and downright helpful.
I guess I just found it absurd that a licensed "professional" would ask that question in the first place...