I am filling out an engagement record and reference form to an applicant who has asked me to be one of his references
to the California survey exam, The instructions indicate that I am to return the filled out and stamped reference to the applicant
so that he may file all the application forms/papers together to the board at once. To me this does not seem logical in that a deceptive
applicant could possibly change what I indicated on their reference form. (not that this applicant would ) Other States that I have
referenced to always had me send those forms directly back to the board. Does the California board verify that the references are true by
reaching out to separately to the applicants references..? I understand California most likely recieves a ton of appicants every
year and probably does not have the personal to put all the applicants information together.. just curious if they verify those references
as they should.
Back in '98, in Oregon, the reference forms were returned to the applicant in sealed envelopes, stamped and signed across the seal, and forwarded with the application in that condition.
In the mid 1980s in Texas the form was given to the licensed surveyor and he/she sent directly to the BOR.
😉
In 2011, New York had the surveyor filling out the reference mail that form directly to the board.
JMS66, post: 336406, member: 1425 wrote: I am filling out an engagement record and reference form to an applicant who has asked me to be one of his references
to the California survey exam, The instructions indicate that I am to return the filled out and stamped reference to the applicant
so that he may file all the application forms/papers together to the board at once. To me this does not seem logical in that a deceptive
applicant could possibly change what I indicated on their reference form. (not that this applicant would ) Other States that I have
referenced to always had me send those forms directly back to the board. Does the California board verify that the references are true by
reaching out to separately to the applicants references..? I understand California most likely recieves a ton of appicants every
year and probably does not have the personal to put all the applicants information together.. just curious if they verify those references
as they should.
This is a very big problem. It needs to be changed.
I once had an inferior subordinate ask for a reference. Lots of years but not a clue.
This person was running about 4 on a scale of 1 to 10. Obviously not at all close to being ready to be a LS. With huge luck on the multiple guess exam it would be a done deal.
I saw two choices: Be honest and put it in the applicant's hand (fireworks!) or Refuse to respond (fireworks!).
I invented a third option... I was honest, but I mailed it in. I then told the applicant that it had gone out in the mail. I wrote a separate letter to the board about the situation but never got a response.
This is a very bad situation, it needs to be fixed.
The problem, as I see it, is that the onus is on the applicant to get all of the forms in to the board. If the Referencing surveyor does not send it in, or is too late, the applicant is in the dark and might suffer due to the incompetence of someone else. I believe them requiring the envelop to be sealed and signed across it is their solution to keeping the onus on the applicant to get it in on time. It sounds like your concern is if the applicant breaks the seal and reads it anyway. I don't know if they can do that and reseal it to look like the seal was never broken.
I don't remember these days, are they looking for your recommendation or are they just trying to verify that the applicant has the time in under you that they are claiming they have? If I were an applicant that was looking for recommendations, I would not be trying to get one from someone that doesn't think I qualify.
The first sign of an ethics violation - a broken seal on a reference envelope ...
JMS66, post: 336406, member: 1425 wrote: I am filling out an engagement record and reference form to an applicant who has asked me to be one of his references
to the California survey exam, The instructions indicate that I am to return the filled out and stamped reference to the applicant
so that he may file all the application forms/papers together to the board at once. To me this does not seem logical in that a deceptive
applicant could possibly change what I indicated on their reference form. (not that this applicant would ) Other States that I have
referenced to always had me send those forms directly back to the board. Does the California board verify that the references are true by
reaching out to separately to the applicants references..? I understand California most likely recieves a ton of appicants every
year and probably does not have the personal to put all the applicants information together.. just curious if they verify those references
as they should.
JMS66 - the applicant is providing correct instructions to you. You need to sign the bottom of the Engagement form that the applicant completed indicating that you actually saw this part and know what you are certifying to. Then you complete the reference portion of the form, sign, seal, and date that. Afterwards, you place the completed form in a sealed envelope with your seal and signature on the back. Many times, our staff land surveyor will call up the professional reference to discuss some aspect or another, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this will be one of them. If it makes you feel better and after you know the applicant has submitted the application, send in your own copy of what you provided to [email protected] to verify the correct form was submitted. Ray can also be reached at 916-263-2271.
When I applied to get my license in CA, I had to turn in the references in sealed envelopes with the reference's stamp across the envelope flap. It would be pretty obvious if I had tampered with the document inside.
Ric,
You and I have spoken about licensees who provide positive references for candidates that go on to demonstrate their clear lack of qualification by failing the exam over and over and over.... and expressed our frustration that licensees would vouch for a person who is clearly not qualified, wishing BPELSG had some authority to put some accountability on a licensee providing the reference after the candidate has failed several attempts at the exam. (Unfortunately, they don't and a few incompetents score enough points on luck to 'get their ticket' - exam by multiple guess = exam by lottery)
It seems like a system that has the reference return the form, not sealed in a security envelope at the least, discourages references from being fully honest as such honesty could harm an employment relationship or a friendship.
It doesn't seem like much of a cost increase to provide envelopes appropriate to return reference forms in. If it is, amend the regs to add $5 to the cost of an application.
It's been many years, but I don't recall that the reference forms that were filled out for me were sent back to me. Could be, but I think that they were sent directly to the BORPELS (as the acronym was then).
Ric Moore, post: 336507, member: 731 wrote: JMS66 - the applicant is providing correct instructions to you. You need to sign the bottom of the Engagement form that the applicant completed indicating that you actually saw this part and know what you are certifying to. Then you complete the reference portion of the form, sign, seal, and date that. Afterwards, you place the completed form in a sealed envelope with your seal and signature on the back. Many times, our staff land surveyor will call up the professional reference to discuss some aspect or another, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this will be one of them. If it makes you feel better and after you know the applicant has submitted the application, send in your own copy of what you provided to [email protected] to verify the correct form was submitted. Ray can also be reached at 916-263-2271.
Ric: I understand that this method saves costs. However, the possibility exists for the candidate to view the response. That does not encourage us to be Candid.
Question: If the form is sent directly back to the board can we assume the staff can deal with that?
thanks
Peter Ehlert, post: 336644, member: 60 wrote: That does not encourage us to be Candid.
But you are verifying a length of time, your personal opinion is not likely required.
How many young surveyors have made catastrophic mistakes that terminated an employment? The question is did they learn from the mistake.
eapls2708, post: 336583, member: 589 wrote: Ric,
You and I have spoken about licensees who provide positive references for candidates that go on to demonstrate their clear lack of qualification by failing the exam over and over and over.... and expressed our frustration that licensees would vouch for a person who is clearly not qualified, wishing BPELSG had some authority to put some accountability on a licensee providing the reference after the candidate has failed several attempts at the exam. (Unfortunately, they don't and a few incompetents score enough points on luck to 'get their ticket' - exam by multiple guess = exam by lottery)
It seems like a system that has the reference return the form, not sealed in a security envelope at the least, discourages references from being fully honest as such honesty could harm an employment relationship or a friendship.
It doesn't seem like much of a cost increase to provide envelopes appropriate to return reference forms in. If it is, amend the regs to add $5 to the cost of an application.
It's been many years, but I don't recall that the reference forms that were filled out for me were sent back to me. Could be, but I think that they were sent directly to the BORPELS (as the acronym was then).
How about we raise the bar for sitting for the exam?
vern, post: 336653, member: 3436 wrote: But you are verifying a length of time, your personal opinion is not likely required.
How many young surveyors have made catastrophic mistakes that terminated an employment? The question is did they learn from the mistake.
To not offer a personal opinion would be a huge omission. Fortunately, the CA reference form has it covered:
BajaOR, post: 336671, member: 9139 wrote: To not offer a personal opinion would be a huge omission. Fortunately, the CA reference form has it covered:
Yep, I see how that could be interpreted as a request of a personal opinion, but I still think it is not. Whether an individual is qualified or not would be answered with "do not know" by me. I have no idea what that person has learned since I last saw him.
Although the "Don't know" response makes perfect sense if the applicant worked for or with you several years before (and assuming this is their first application for a LS license), but BPELSG treats a "Don't know" response the same as if you said "No". It's counted as a negative reference even if you're assessment of the work they did for you was that it was excellent for someone with their amount of training and experience at the time, and even if you are of the opinion that as long as they continued to progress in their knowledge and skill as they did when working for you, that they would be well qualified.
At least that's how it was up until 4 or 5 years ago. Hopefully they've figured out a way to interject a bit more common sense into the reference review criteria.
Responsible field and office training: Board Rule 425 does not leave a lot of room for word games. (www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/boardrules.pdf)
If you think you can answer that question No candidly you need to explain yourself.
The same with the final question.
To answer fully should take some head scratching and a couple sheets of paper...
The California process does not require a ton of education or experience. I do hear the new machine graded multiple guess exam is tough, but it is Multiple Guess.
I feel the references are Highly Important. Unfortunately I do not believe this quickly check list does much.
putting the response into the hands of the candidate prevents us from being candid, direct response to the board is needed... and stated as such on the form.
Ric Moore, post: 336507, member: 731 wrote: JMS66 - the applicant is providing correct instructions to you. You need to sign the bottom of the Engagement form that the applicant completed indicating that you actually saw this part and know what you are certifying to. Then you complete the reference portion of the form, sign, seal, and date that. Afterwards, you place the completed form in a sealed envelope with your seal and signature on the back. Many times, our staff land surveyor will call up the professional reference to discuss some aspect or another, but that doesn't necessarily mean that this will be one of them. If it makes you feel better and after you know the applicant has submitted the application, send in your own copy of what you provided to [email protected] to verify the correct form was submitted. Ray can also be reached at 916-263-2271.
Thanks Ric, for continually providing your input and clarifications to the forum.:good: I hope the machine format works out well for the board and the state. I will say I appreciated taking the written exam in 2011 and felt is was a very thorough exam that was well written and covered a great variety of topics.
To be clear, I did not post the entire form, which is here:
http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/ls_errf.pdf
Zoidberg, post: 336428, member: 8841 wrote: In 2011, New York had the surveyor filling out the reference mail that form directly to the board.
You sure about that? My NY application, Dec 2010, I filled out the beginning part of the verification form, gave them to my endorsers, and they sent them in themselves.
Bottom of page 5:
Return Directly to: New York State Education Department, Office of the Professions, Division of Professional Licensing Services, Land Surveying Unit, 89 Washington Avenue, Albany, NY 12234-1000.