This is in PA, a non PSLS state, so all deeds are metes and bounds, usually with differing (unknown) basis of bearing.
I have an old RR plan which shows the various parcels taken (in fee or by condemnation) for a main railroad which still exists, and is fairly busy. I believe the RR was originally built around the mid 1870's, but then realigned somewhere around 1890 to make the curves more gradual. From what I can tell there were up to 4 tracks in this area in the 1940's, but there is currently a single track, on a tangent.
An engineer at the client (US Government) gave me the map (he used to work for this railroad). He pointed out that C/L monuments are shown on the plan, and that they (the railroad) had in the past been able to recover some of these monuments (not here, but elsewhere). As I explained to him, the possibility of me being able to dig down in the center of an active railroad to recover one is close enough to zero to be non-existent.
I located the center of the current track. The SPC azimuth differs from the plan by 1°35'. SPC convergence here is 1°36' (in the direction to make them differ by only 1'). Coincidence? or would the RR be using "true" north? The plan that I have says nothing about the basis of bearings. Adjoiners are all over the place bearing-wise, and most of the deeds in this area do not close, and don't even agree between adjoiners.
Of course I am assuming that the current track is on the same alignment as the original.
I do not have access to any other RR plans, nor the time to try to get them.
I have also noticed that RR plans agree with "true" bearings in many cases.
All of the railroads around here were as close to True as they could get.
Also, there was an old surveyor around here that felt it was prudent to set his compass up in the middle of the railroad and set the compass to what the bearing of the railroad map was. His reasoning you ask? Well, he felt that one rails pull would be canceled out by the other rail. I can't make this stuff up sports fans.
Retracing him up against a railroad is ALWAYS fun. 🙂 At least he left corners though.
Our old railroads didn't have any CL monuments, and now that the rails are gone, it's sometimes By Guess and By God.
They pretty much all appear to be Astro-North around these parts in those days, sometimes with the convergence variance between astro-observations that were taken every so often, "buried" in the curves as the need arose.
Loyal
basis of bearings-old RR plan?> North arrow?
Say John, local custom around here is that a single sided north arrow = magnetic and a double sided north arrow = true....
Not that I would go hanging my hat on this, but just saying...
kinda interesting that they would do that way back then, but yet it is hard to get some people to do it today.....
basis of bearings-old RR plan?> North arrow?
it does have a double sided north arrow...
We used to be able to find centerline monuments here in RI. Unfortunately the railroad had equipment that would scrape up and relay balast sometime aroung the mid '80s. At that time we could still find the bases of the monuments. Since then, AMTRAK has relaid all of the tracks for the northeast corrider and ACELA trains here so the tracks are in a different location now. Ocassionally we can still find the monuments down 4 or 5 feet. If you call the railroad they will send signal men out with you so you can work within their ROW. The ROW plans here show buildings, etc. that are still there so we can get a good idea where we should be, we also have access to ty's the railroad took in the late 70's. There should be a survey section of (I assume) AMTRAK in your area that can help with finding information.
If you don't have the time to do the research and make the calls, personally, I wouldn't take the job.
All the railroads I've retraced have been true. There's a long stretch of track on a 17-mile tangent running ne-sw that changes bearing every couple of miles, according to the plan.
JBS
Thanks, JB. Of course it would have to change, depending on how far E-W it goes. Interesting.
The project actually has nothing to do with the railroad, the US already has a r-o-w across that, acquired in the mid 1980's. But, the RR is senior, and a few of the adjoiners use the same bearing as the RR. The US monumented their taking in the 80's, but they missed the actual line by a few feet. However, they are not encroaching.
The problem tract is owned by the township, it doesn't fit with any of the adjoiners, and there are no pins or any other kind of monuments on that. Actually, there are very few monumented corners on anything around here, very typical for PA. Typical deeds just call for points rather than pins. Of course that is the tract they want.
And, I tried to get a road docket from the County. They said I needed the date the 33' wide road was established. Finally, on Friday, I found the date (1912) in a deed from way up the road. But, the County has to get it from some archive, so it may be a few more days yet, and they said it may not even be findable.
There are right of way monuments and there are C/L reference monuments along the State Highways in this State, if the signage is missing, a look at the route drawings may show reference monuments were set and not ROW, many here don't look, find a monument, must be ROW and off they go.
jud
PS: Those C/L reference monuments I have found all were near the ROW but a couple of feet inside.
In PA no such thing as ROW monuments or C/L monuments, except maybe on the newer limited access highways. No monumentation requirements at all, no recording requirements. At least in my area the most common corner is a wooden hub, if anything at all.
The road in question is a township road, the ONLY hope is the road docket, which, as I understand it, is where court appointed viewers went out, and decided upon the location of a road. The docket should show location and abutters.
I have a similar problem (lack of documentation) for the road I live on. It was first a township road (33'), then a county road, and more recently a state road. The county says they gave the road plans to the state, the state says they never got them. I have been back and forth between them numerous times. No monuments at all on the road, and it has been realigned. Also, the width varies according to when the adjacent lots were subdivided out. I believe that because of a past widening, the subdivision behind me is encroaching up to 5' on my property. My theory is that to get the boundaries of the (large) subdivision, they came off the centerline of the road. But, they were using the older width. The only called for monument for the subdivision tract is buried under about 10' of fill. Unfortunately the beneficiary of the 5' shift is a landlocked tract (on the opposite side of the subdivision) that most likely will never be developed.
Yes, how I wish we had regulations for monumentation, and that roads had ROW monuments.
no road docket
I spoke to the county today. I had ordered the road docket on Friday. Strangely enough, road dockets are in the criminal division. Anyway, they could not find anything for that entire year (1914). Why? Floods, fires, etc-could be anything they said.
I also traced back the deed that is for the tract the US wants to acquire. It is currently owned by the township, prior to that it was owned by the County, who acquired it form a private owner in the 1920's. At least two of the four sides are clearly wrong, they obviously conflict with adjoiners (senior, I might add). Everyone just copies the previous deed word for word, never mind that it is obviously incorrect.
no road docket
What county are you working in where they will look up the dockets for you? In Fayette, they just guide me to a dark basement show me the piles of books and tell me to turn the light out when I am done. I have never had any luck with these dockets as they are only in order by date and not location.
no road docket
Allegheny. All of the deeds, state highway plans, subdivision plans, etc are like that-self service. But apparently the road dockets were long ago sent somewhere (where?). here is the web page:
As it says, they "maintain custody", but they really have no idea what they have or don't have.
They first told me that I need to know the year, which I didn't. Then I found a deed further away that said "Beginning at a point on the northerly side of Township Road laid out at No. 2, December Sessions 1914 in the Quarter Sessions Court...". While not exactly called a road docket, I assume that is what it is. They have nothing from that year.
no road docket
I have been to Allegheny CH a few times. Not the friendliest folks there. They may have steered you in the wrong direction. In Fayette, the road dockets are kept in I believe the Clerk's Office (I can picture the office and location but not the name on the door). That site looks like the court dockets. From what I remember, there was an index that was listed by road name, location, and date which refered to another book that had the acutal description of the road. I am sure every County files them different. Sorry I couldn't be of more help. I try to avoid Allegheny County as much as I possibly can.
no road docket
Neil: I ahve been to Fayette County Courthouse a few times, for personal real estate searches (property I was interested in buying in Dunbar Township). Much easier to navigate.
You are right-not the most helpful people, I had to keep pressing them. But, as you can see from the jpg from their website, they say the road dockets are there, in the CRIMINAL DIVISION. As soon as I went there and asked for them, they knew, and asked for a date.
I believe they have moved some of this seldom accessed stuff to a warehouse somewhere. I would be happy to go dig around in boxes, but the way things are nowadays that is probably verboten. I wouldn't doubt that the township has this info, but I was told by my client not to go there.
Here in Allegheny they have deed books up into the 14,000's, each with about 700 or so pages. Only the ones above 10000 are computerized. The others are in books only. It would be oh so helpful if at least the deed direct and the deed adsectum(sp?) books were available in a database.
And the place is full of people doing Marcellus Shale searches.
