I am running an older Geodimeter 4400 without many programs in it.
What I would like to do is establish my station as a free station with two known points creating a baseline. I would then use the point I set the station on as my station point for returning to do.
The problem is the only data I have is the previous surveys and can guarantee I will measure precisely the same value that I enter in the station. How do I handle this discrepancy? Manually measuring this distance any other way is not practical. Also, I realize the station will show the error between measured and entered but IIRC, it just says "do you want to accept", not really "which value do you think is most right?"
Also, assuming this number is a bit off, can you reshoot that same point again?
I can tell you I find the station establishment procedure rather tedious and finicky on this gun. So much so I had to print up and drag notes with me to do it.
I have seen people setup stations before by just shooting a line anywhere in space and measure the distance. So call one N0E0, the next N0E20', measure over 20' manually and setup. Then shoot any other points you wish and see all the coordinates relative to other shots and just disregard the two points to used to setup.
My issue is the baseline I need to shoot is 1300ft long. One of the pins may be damaged or missing (ag field). My thought process is these points are the property line that adjoins to a county road and I already know the pins that mark the center of road and corners for this property are still in the road (we found them before), so I was just going to use the two pins in the road as the baseline but that seems risky assuming those points are right?
I guess what I have is a property with some sort of unreliable points and need to sort them. At what point do you consider a "master point" or deemed reliable enough? I just found out from a neighbor only tonight that apparently there was a survey done several years ago and they set a property pin 4-5ft off a fence line and after the survey was done, the farmer went out and pulled it and moved it back to the corner of the fence line!!! At least I already know there will be an issue with that point....
bob james, post: 427271, member: 12050 wrote:
I just found out from a neighbor only tonight that apparently there was a survey done several years ago and they set a property pin 4-5ft off a fence line and after the survey was done, the farmer went out and pulled it and moved it back to the corner of the fence line!!! At least I already know there will be an issue with that point....
Before doing anything else, I'd start with the survey "done several years ago", as well as any other surveys performed in the area.
Oh my. An unlicensed surveyor suggesting another unlicensed surveyor to perform his own survey.
From an unlicensed surveyor, whom has recently taken all the exams and awaiting results, I suggest you call a licensed surveyor.
leegreen, post: 427275, member: 2332 wrote: Oh my. An unlicensed surveyor suggesting another unlicensed surveyor to perform his own survey.
I suggest you call a licensed surveyor.
I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. You don't need to be a surveyor to search public records at the town clerk's office for recorded surveys.
Also, FYI, I'm not a surveyor, licensed or otherwise. You should know that studying surveying and practicing surveying are two very different things.
I do realize any "spotting" that I do would not be valid without a license, but that piece of paper would not dictate if someone may own and use their own total station for other purposes.
This really has nothing to do with validating or invalidating any survey, this is just for general knowledge, but I also need to create a couple other monuments within my own property that I can use to locate other things later, but having no lawful requirement to do any of it.
I'm assuming the intended use is Ag. You intend to establish a baseline corresponding to one boundary line, and presumably assume that the other lines are parallel or perpendicular to it. That may or may not be close enough for your purpose. But you might start with that and then test it and make adjustments.
It would never be good boundary survey practice to just jump on 2 record monuments and go to town.
Thanks Mark. I figured I would probably have to find and shoot as many points as i can locate but that gets tricky with distances and such in ag property.
I know my place was surveyed and validates back around 2002 when it was partitioned and auctioned off, then again when I bought it in 2011.
Due to fences, trees, etc, and just wanting to know kind of where the lines were, I brought in a surveyor that I know simply to do some off-the-books work in figuring it out. At that time, the points were right.
I am curious, do licensed surveys go on public record to be "official"? IE, can I look up others? Somewhere I have a survey of the whole half section of ground but I am uncertain how old that one would be and I already know that the most recent official survey noted inaccuracies with previous markings.
I guess there was quite a mess in our area where a surveyor was, what sounds like, shooting a bunch of of bad points. They got in a lawsuit with the county and put out of business, but it has made for some very mad folks that installed fences in the wrong spots.
Using two point free station properly requires one to know how your 2PFS program actually works. I use the SMI data collector and will explain how it works. From my free station point I choose what I think is the better found point and shoot it as point A, I then shoot the next found point and shoot it as point B. SMI 2PFS station calculates as if it were at A, backsighting B and uses the angle and distance to the free station point. even if a precision is at 1/1000 the information is very useable and get you close enough on a system to find other record points. I then set up on the stored 2PFS coordinates and backsight point A, saving it as a sideshot #, I then backsight sideshot # and shoot B as sideshot ##. They are now in my system as points that I can move around as I find and shoot other control points.
If my precision is not satisfying and third control point is observable, I will redo 2PFS from scratch on a different set. On occasion the best I could do was to mean 3 different 2PFS coordinates in the field.
When I return to that job, I use my new point numbers to check in on my current precision.
Last year I used 2PFS to do a setup between two of my traverse points along a road EP in order to get a shot through the trees to a distance concrete monument. 1/91,000 precision, backsight to A was 0å¡ 347', foresight to B was 194å¡ 191' very flat, but being 0.007' long it was well within my traverse tolerances.
Paul in PA
rfc, post: 427285, member: 8882 wrote: I wasn't suggesting anything of the sort. You don't need to be a surveyor to search public records at the town clerk's office for recorded surveys.
Also, FYI, I'm not a surveyor, licensed or otherwise. You should know that studying surveying and practicing surveying are two very different things.
In deed, they are two very different things. That is the precise reason that a licensed Surveyor is required to have the education, experience and continuing education. Go with a Professional Surveyor and let them resolve the issues and provide a product that can be relied upon. Whether for yourself or a paying customer practicing surveying without a license is a punishable offense under state law.
Chris Bouffard, post: 427338, member: 12313 wrote: In deed, they are two very different things. That is the precise reason that a licensed Surveyor is required to have the education, experience and continuing education. Go with a Professional Surveyor and let them resolve the issues and provide a product that can be relied upon. Whether for yourself or a paying customer practicing surveying without a license is a punishable offense under state law.
I assume you're talking about NJ State Law. Just out of curiosity though, how would a NJ Licensed Surveyor interpret the following from the Kansas statutes, (b), and (c) in particular (the apparent intent of the OP):
bob james, post: 427297, member: 12050 wrote: I am curious, do licensed surveys go on public record to be "official"? IE, can I look up others?
If you were in one of 15 (mostly western) states which have recording laws you would be able to obtain copies of boundary surveys from public records - if one had been done. I do not believe that Kansas is one of them.
Thanks for the replies and I can only assume my efforts are probably being misunderstood. I don't know of a state that will only sell a robot to a licensee so I think it just matters in how you use it. At least in my state, unless I am trying to convey coordinates for someone or submit to the county for public record, it shouldn't matter.
I am mostly using the robot for grade work, but I am also now using it to create coordinate maps FOR MY OWN USE to locate things on the ground as they go in on a new construction project. These are such things as elevations of pipes in the trench so I will always know their depth if I need to dig them up. These are not things that are ever even required, but it sure comes in handy!
I do have my property survey, it is pretty recent, and I DO NOT intend to move or change anything, only use those for reference for my own work to create a coordinate system. For instance, I just got back from finding a buried pin and used it with another corner market to create a baseline. The official survey shows this line as 1323.15ft, and I shot it at 1323.17ft. Considering the variables involved, I am fine with that.
Now, I do have a question and please don't beat me too bad, but my survey does not show anything in a real Cartesian system, but seems like polar angles as northings? A coordinate might be N89'30"15, E1323.15(M). I had to go and calculate all the actual positions and I figure most probably just punch this in their robot and go but I am trying to understand this better. Do I just need a real data collector to make this easy?
You need a basic surveying book more than you need a data collector. If you understand what's going on you can do all the calculations you will need in a spreadsheet. The data collector is just a tool to improve efficiency while hiding from the user how it is calculating things.
N89 30 '15", E1323.15(M) translates as "in a direction turned from north 89 degrees 30 minutes 15 seconds toward east, the surveyor measured 1323.15 ft to the marker. The (M) is to distinguish the number from a (R)ecord value that might have been shown on an earlier plat.
Now you need to figure out what the surveyor used as the north reference or Basis of Bearing, as some plats will be on a mapping grid north, others on geodetic north, and still others just assuming some mostly reasonable but arbitrary direction for one of the lines and relating the other lines to that.
And was the distance on the plat US survey feet or International feet, and was it expressed as a distance on the surface (we hope) or perhaps on the map grid which can stretch or shrink the distances in order to put the round earth on a flat map (that gets into scale factors and combined factors).
Lots to learn.
Bill, you are right. I realized what was being presented, but it seems you either need a to build some excel calcs to work up the numbers for you, or use a data collector or other software as the relative angles get complex because nothing is every square and perfect.
You are also correct that there is an "assumed basis of bearings" extending 1/2mi down the center of the road to the north with a bearing of N00'00'00", then the next 1/2 mi north with a bearing of N00'08'15"E, which I assume means from the 1/2mi point to the 1mi point, the line is angled at 00'08'15" to the East? However, what flustered my noodle was the East to West lines with angles on them. Are these angles referenced back to the true North bearing or based off the angled Northing line down the center of road in front of them?
So I figured I would just stuff some numbers in my CAD software and see what happened so I converted the E/W lines to decimal degrees and drafted their recorded lengths. Then I compared what was on the survey vs my CAD model and they matched to .005ft.
So it appeared that the Northing line, though angled, is being referenced for the E/W lines.
What I am missing is N89'08'16"E, where is this angle referenced to and which side is that angle? I mean assuming you have a North line, and it is perfect or the basis, then you have N89'08'16"E Going to the West of that line, is that a line that is clocked counter clockwise to that value?
No offense intended towards RFC and Bob. Yes, with the correct knowledge a land owner can perform their own survey, grading, layout and improvements using a total station or other survey equipment. But without a complete understand of terminology, understanding maps, bearings, distances, deeds, feild evidence, etc, then the problems begin. Not knowing the difference between a bearing versions a coordinate is very basic surveying that can lead to bad consequences. All surveyors have followed a situation like this and it is very difficult to sort out. I suggest you get a Surveyor to update the map and verify your property corners/lines. Then feel free to work inside those limits.
rfc, post: 427343, member: 8882 wrote: I assume you're talking about NJ State Law. Just out of curiosity though, how would a NJ Licensed Surveyor interpret the following from the Kansas statutes, (b), and (c) in particular (the apparent intent of the OP):
As far as (b) is concerned, at least here in NJ, you can survey your own or employers property all day long as long as it is for informational purposes only, however, if you were doing it for the purposes of constructing a fence or other improvements that work would have to be redone by a Licensed Land Surveyor for the purposes of obtaining the local approvals needed for permits. NJ is a highly regulated state on just about everything and maybe my opinions reflect on how things work here as compared to states where things are more relaxed. I have a step son who worked in Houston TX for a developer and designed residential subdivision plans and got approvals based on his layout. The kid never surveyed a day in his life or even took a basic course in surveying. Here in NJ nobody is allowed to do or show any work related to a property line unless they are a Licensed Professional Land Surveyor, wit the exception of a licensed Engineer who is working off of a plan of survey provided by a PLS and that plan must be less than one year old to remain valid or it has to be updated.
As for (c) I'm not really sure of the intent of the wording. I live in the farm belt of NJ and my specific area of residence is in a farming community on the edge of the Pinelands National Reserve in South Jersey. I know several large successful farmers in this area and none of them do any sort of surveying on their farm or even employ gps on their equipment but, if they did, it probably would not be very regulated unless it came to clearing or wetlands issues. Keep in mind, the average farm here in NJ is anywhere between 200 to 400 acres and not huge expanses like there are west of here. In my 33 years of surveying, other than for the sale of a farm for subdivision designs, I have only worked on a farm once when the work was related to agriculture and that was a large farm that needed planting beds laid out with precision as it was a seed testing operation and they needed to closely monitor crop yield. Otherwise I have surveyed a ton of farms for inclusion into the Farmlands Preservation Program where the farmers sell their development rights to the County/State and the surveys are used by those agencies to apply deed restrictions and easements, essentially preserving the farmlands as such perpetually but not conveying title.
Mark Mayer, post: 427401, member: 424 wrote: If you were in one of 15 (mostly western) states which have recording laws you would be able to obtain copies of boundary surveys from public records - if one had been done. I do not believe that Kansas is one of them.
I'm from NJ, one of the colonial states and our deed systems and recording requirements are far different than those out west. We do not record our surveys, though that would be a huge help if we did and we are not at all based on a rectangular system. To this day I still occasionally get involved in title issues that have to be researched back to the land grants from the King.