I will not provided ANY zoning or setback info for an ALTA survey unless it is provided by the insurer as stated in the 2011 standards.... and they never provide it. I will tell the client I can provided it but it will not be certified as item 6 unless the insurer provides it.
What says you? Is this the way you operate? or am I alone on this?
> I will not provided ANY zoning or setback info for an ALTA survey unless it is provided by the insurer as stated in the 2011 standards.... and they never provide it. I will tell the client I can provided it but it will not be certified as item 6 unless the insurer provides it.
>
> What says you? Is this the way you operate? or am I alone on this?
Definitely the right way to go.
Have far too often seen zoning and setback requirements that seem to blow in the wind. One day and one planner tells you one thing. Another day and another employee tells you something completely 180 degrees the opposite.
You should never certify to something unless you have documented facts that you can point to as the basis for your certification. Even then, if you are taking the word of someone else (underground utility location for example) specify the source for your information.
Larry P
Agreed !!!!
We have one client that insists that we gather this information. They do pay for the extra information but that is what they want. In each instance, I meet with zoning officials for that municipality and gather the required information. In those cases, I don't have a problem with it.
Keep in mind that all Table A items are part of contract negotiations, i.e., you can provide the information AT A PRICE.
David's method (above) is a great example.
The insurer MUST provide it as specified quite clearly in the standards or you cannot use the ALTA certification and it will not be an ALTA survey.
Stand your ground!
I ask the Attorney to provide the zoning information as stated in Item 6 . They have always complied . There are now companies that will supply the zoning information in a report . I have recieved this report a couple times. But the report is nothing we cant do its all pretty basic stuff. I jut do not want the liability in conjunction with the survey.
I'll provide zoning and setback info if asked, but I qualify the source with wording like "as provided by the City of Alta Planning Department via telephone on August 28, 2012."
> We have one client that insists that we gather this information. They do pay for the extra information but that is what they want. In each instance, I meet with zoning officials for that municipality and gather the required information. In those cases, I don't have a problem with it.
But do you certify it as 6(a&b) when YOU gather info?
yes
In our area the Pima County information is fairly easy and simple, but the City of Tucson restrictions are almost incomprehensible, and conditional, and I suspect they do that so they can interpret the rules any way they want, depending on the client and what he wants to build, or what the city wants to stop. I usually tell my client to go get a zoning approval letter for an existing site, and for a proposed site they absolutely must have their architect go down and negotiate. I won't touch that.
There is also the question of whether the client (lender, or whatever) wants the current information, or what it was when the site was built.
> > We have one client that insists that we gather this information. They do pay for the extra information but that is what they want. In each instance, I meet with zoning officials for that municipality and gather the required information. In those cases, I don't have a problem with it.
>
>
> But do you certify it as 6(a&b) when YOU gather info?
I would insist on getting the determination in writing on City or County Letterhead. Would also insist on having the letter signed and dated by the person providing the determination. Then I would refer to that letter as the basis for my statement of compliance or non-compliance.
Anything short of that and you could find yourself in a situation like when someone turns on a light in a room full of rats. Seeing them scramble for cover while trying to leave you hanging is not a pretty sight.
Larry P
:good:
Part of my standard language on every ALTA proposal that goes out the door:
The surveyor’s certification on the survey shall be the one prescribed by, and included in, the above referenced Minimum Standard Detail Requirements
Zoning Compliance: Antietam Land Surveying, LLC recommends that you or your legal counsel obtain a Zoning Compliance Certificate from the appropriate jurisdiction.
The purpose of Table A Item #6 is to provide the Title Insurer with some form of information in order to allow a Zoning Endorsement on the Title Insurance Policy. In short, it’s a graphic way for the Title Insurer to see whether the buildings on site actually meet the zoning setback requirements.
So. Put yourself in the shoes of the insurer. Are you going to provide one of the biggest liability items on the list solely on the basis of a plumb-bob swinger’s say so or are you going to get the setback information and take a look at it for yourself?
That’s right. If the Title Company doesn’t provided it for you, it’s pretty much a waste of time for you to find it for yourself and plot it.
The ALTA/ACSM Land Title Survey Standards are NOT cesspool of trip wires designed to catch land surveyors and hang them out to dry. REALLY!
There’s a lot riding on the conveyance of real property. In the “olde days”, when everyone involved in the transaction knew each other as well as the property in question, title insurers weren’t part of the picture. Today, when a buyer in Madrid can purchase a parcel in Los Angeles from a seller in Tokyo using law firms in Dallas and New York and financing through Stuttgart and title insurers out of Chicago, it’s critical to get local knowledge of the site. In many cases, the other parties to the transaction have never even been to the site! It’s critical to have a surveyor LOCATE (not plat from record) the boundary and the items of interest on the property shown on a plat that has been prepared to a set of minimum standards.
Those standards are NOT designed to fool land surveyors; they are intended to make sure that the plat prepared in Poughkeepsie, New York and the plat prepared in St. George, Utah will have the same basic information shown on them.
Please, if you’re going to provide Land Title Surveys as a service, educate yourself. Learn about Land Title Surveys and understand the WHY of them. Talk to title companies and title attorneys and find out what they are really looking for.
Believe me, it makes it a lot easier to turn out a quality product that EVERYONE involved in the transaction understands and can make sense out of.
BTW – Land Title Surveys are a SURVEY product; not a product of the ALTA (not pronounced like the ski resort; it’s an acronym of the American Land Title Association). Land Title Surveys are a SURVEY product. Let’s start referring to them as such. It’ll catch on, believe me. And LTS is even shorter than ALTA!
> The ALTA/ACSM Land Title Survey Standards are NOT cesspool of trip wires designed to catch land surveyors and hang them out to dry. REALLY!
>...
> Please, if you’re going to provide Land Title Surveys as a service, educate yourself. Learn about Land Title Surveys and understand the WHY of them. Talk to title companies and title attorneys and find out what they are really looking for.
Right on the money, Ian!!!
Two high fives and three beers worth, for sure!
:hi5: :hi5: :beer: :beer: :beer:
If you're looking to shelter yourself from liability, don't survey. If you survey, look for ways to provide a superior product and you will be able to make a good living.
;o)
JBS
Double Cheers Ian.
Zoning Endorsement is the main reason for Item 6 and it's not cheap. If the client is paying for it, the Insurer will be doing their due diligence and by working together, you can both assist the client it meeting their needs with your products.
> So. Put yourself in the shoes of the insurer. Are you going to provide one of the biggest liability items on the list solely on the basis of a plumb-bob swinger’s say so or are you going to get the setback information and take a look at it for yourself?
Must be different in California (like politics, all surveying is local); because around here "plumb-bob swinger's" are a integral part of the land development process in it's entirety and are generally considered to be experts on planning and zoning regulation.
Title companies (and their council), land use attorneys, lender's council (for commercial real estate transactions), etc. all consult and confer with the lowly "plumb-bob swinger" and often rely on them to provide and interpret the setback information. This is because it is very likely that a "plumb-bob swinger" designed the original site development plan and probably represented the developer before the planning and zoning boards.
Also, in these parts, the title insurer is pretty much treated on par with the termite inspector during a commercial real estate transaction. Lender's council is calling ALL the shots and if they say "jump" the title insurer says "how high" and throws in a "yes massa" for good measure.
:good: :good:
I wouldn't certify anything regarding zoning. That's really outside your baliwick. Let the zoning people provide a letter stating this and include a note on your plat referencing the letter from the zoning people.
lol
in 90% of all cases I provide the zoning data. It's just routine here in CT. Do I put a note on the map saying that all zoning data is subject to verification? You bet. But I still put on setbacks and other zoning data.
