I have clients that only want the PDF file and they shred any hard copies they receive.
When the check clears, I send the hard copies to the people that bought the property.
My understanding is that you need an original signed drawing in your office file of whatever you send out as a digital file.
😉
I have a digital signature certificate issued by Globalsign as recommended by someone here on the forum. It is protected with a USB token which is protected by a password. Even if you steal my token, you won't know my password. I take other steps to protect against problems by keeping a journal of projects and utilizing some methods that I won't disclose here.
The only additional thing I think I will be doing is adding "The original document is an electronic file". That was suggested to me so that if something has to go to court, the original electronic file with the encoded signature certificate has to be presented and not just a paper printout.
AN
A Harris, post: 331903, member: 81 wrote: My understanding is that you need an original signed drawing in your office file of whatever you send out as a digital file.
😉
I keep the original, signed drawing on my server and server backups.
TEXAS BUSINESS AND COMMERCE CODE
TITLE 10. USE OF TELECOMMUNICATIONS
SUBTITLE B. ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS
CHAPTER 322. UNIFORM ELECTRONIC TRANSACTIONS ACT
Sec. 322.007. LEGAL RECOGNITION OF ELECTRONIC RECORDS, ELECTRONIC SIGNATURES, AND ELECTRONIC CONTRACTS. (a) A record or signature may not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely because it is in electronic form.
(b) A contract may not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely because an electronic record was used in its formation.
(c) If a law requires a record to be in writing, an electronic record satisfies the law.
(d) If a law requires a signature, an electronic signature satisfies the law.
Ric Moore, post: 331725, member: 731 wrote: skwyd, sounds like you are explaining to your clients the events that could trigger the mandatory filing of a Record of Survey in California. But, I would like to caution you that the requirement to file in mandatory situations does not fall with the client. It is solely the Land Surveyor's responsibility regardless of what the client wishes to do or not. I sincerely hope that you are covering yourself contractually speaking so that in the event filing is required, you can be paid and not be in a situation where you are footing the bill.
You need to also be cognizant of section 8771(a) which requires a sufficient number of monuments to allow your survey to retraced. This is also the responsibility of the Land Surveyor and not the client. Land Surveyors in California have the responsibility to ensure that sufficient monuments are in the ground (found and set) to allow "...the perpetuation or facile reestablishment of any point or line of the survey." regardless of whether clients for ALTA surveys request monuments or not.
Wow! I sure wish our Executive Officer of the Oregon Board (OSBEELS) would monitor this surveying site and weigh in every once in a while. In fact it would be nice if we could get them to act in a timely fashion! Thank you Ric! My 2 cents, Jp
RADAR, post: 331812, member: 413 wrote: Why argue?
M-O-N-E-Y :snarky:
Somebody is going to have to spend some; and nobody wants to, if they don't have to...
I witness more surveyors teaching their clients how to circumvent the law than informing them of the law and then making money off fulfilling the law (setting monuments and filing a map). My 2 cents, Jp
Ric Moore, post: 331725, member: 731 wrote: skwyd, sounds like you are explaining to your clients the events that could trigger the mandatory filing of a Record of Survey in California. But, I would like to caution you that the requirement to file in mandatory situations does not fall with the client. It is solely the Land Surveyor's responsibility regardless of what the client wishes to do or not. I sincerely hope that you are covering yourself contractually speaking so that in the event filing is required, you can be paid and not be in a situation where you are footing the bill.
You need to also be cognizant of section 8771(a) which requires a sufficient number of monuments to allow your survey to retraced. This is also the responsibility of the Land Surveyor and not the client. Land Surveyors in California have the responsibility to ensure that sufficient monuments are in the ground (found and set) to allow "...the perpetuation or facile reestablishment of any point or line of the survey." regardless of whether clients for ALTA surveys request monuments or not.
Ric
This is exactly what I'm doing. I guess I wasn't 100% clear. In the contracts I always put a clause indicating that if a record of survey is required by the California PLS Act, that will be additional to the survey.
Or, more specifically, I always tell my boss, who write the contracts, to put that in there. I hate writing up contracts!
JBStahl, post: 331853, member: 427 wrote:
I use NitroPro to sign my pdf files. I sign contracts with my signature and I sign/seal drawings with my stamp and signature. They're just password protected image files that I keep protected in a file directory instead of a desk drawer. When the document is printed, the signature or seal with signature appear just as if it were done the "old-fashioned" way. The real advantage is found in the laws that protect my digital signature vs the laws that protect me from fraud and forgery.
JBS
I'm interested in this NitroPro. I think I do the same thing with my Bluebeam software. How it works on mine is that it creates a secure key file of some kind that I keep on a USB drive. I can go to "sign" a pdf and it prompts me for the file on the USB file and a password to access it. After that it creates a secure message on the file whenever someone opens it that says I signed it, and doesn't allow modifications.
Trouble is, couldn't anyone create a digital signature in my name and do the same thing - or with your system for that matter. How do these digital signatures prevent someone from making a fraudulent digital signature files and pretending it's me signing things?
Allen Wrench, post: 332260, member: 6172 wrote: Trouble is, couldn't anyone create a digital signature in my name and do the same thing - or with your system for that matter. How do these digital signatures prevent someone from making a fraudulent digital signature files and pretending it's me signing things?
There are a number of ways of setting up both electronic signatures and digital signatures. What you're currently using sounds like a digital signature. There are a number of styles and types of digital signatures available with an infinite variety of protections. Under the current laws, however, an electronic signature provides equal protection from forgery. Electronic signatures are simpler to use but don't provide the complex matrix of notifications for an altered document.
Anyone with a pen can commit forgery. Anyone with a scanner can create a copy of your signature. There's no way to prevent forgery from happening no matter what you're using. So, rather than worry about that, what you need to focus on is the laws that protect your from forgery if and when it ever happens.
That's where the laws that protect electronic transactions and electronic trade and commerce far outshine the antiquated laws against fraud and forgery. There are state, federal and international laws that encourage electronic business transactions. E-signatures fall under those laws. There are entire departments of government that will prosecute individuals interfering with electronic business transactions. That means they pay for the prosecution, not you.
JBS
JBStahl, post: 332314, member: 427 wrote: There are a number of ways of setting up both electronic signatures and digital signatures. . . .
That's where the laws that protect electronic transactions and electronic trade and commerce far outshine the antiquated laws against fraud and forgery. There are state, federal and international laws that encourage electronic business transactions. E-signatures fall under those laws. There are entire departments of government that will prosecute individuals interfering with electronic business transactions. That means they pay for the prosecution, not you.
JBS
The Department of Defense requires the employees of some contractors to have an ÛÏExternal Certification Authority (ECA)Û certificate. This level of digital signature requires the issuing authority to verify the identity of the individual receiving the digital ID/signature. Years ago I suggested that at some point state professional licensing boards make issuing a digital signature a part of license renewal.
State agencies are requiring architects, engineers and surveyors to submit digital documents and license boards have requirements that such documents be digitally signed/certified. State license boards have established the identity of the licensed individual and could work with state information technology departments and private certificate authorities to issue a digital license certificate. Opening the digital document would allow verification of ID directly with the registration board.
JBStahl, post: 332314, member: 427 wrote: There are a number of ways of setting up both electronic signatures and digital signatures. What you're currently using sounds like a digital signature. There are a number of styles and types of digital signatures available with an infinite variety of protections. Under the current laws, however, an electronic signature provides equal protection from forgery. Electronic signatures are simpler to use but don't provide the complex matrix of notifications for an altered document.
Anyone with a pen can commit forgery. Anyone with a scanner can create a copy of your signature. There's no way to prevent forgery from happening no matter what you're using. So, rather than worry about that, what you need to focus on is the laws that protect your from forgery if and when it ever happens.
That's where the laws that protect electronic transactions and electronic trade and commerce far outshine the antiquated laws against fraud and forgery. There are state, federal and international laws that encourage electronic business transactions. E-signatures fall under those laws. There are entire departments of government that will prosecute individuals interfering with electronic business transactions. That means they pay for the prosecution, not you.
JBS
Here's a snippet of the law (state of ND) I'm dealing with:
The term "signature", as used herein, shall mean a handwritten
identification containing the name of the person who applied it; or for
electronic or digital documents shall mean a digital signature that shall
include an electronic authentication process in a secure mode that
is attached to or logically associated with the electronic document to
which it is applied. The digital signature must be unique to, and under
the sole control of, the person using it; it must also be capable of
verification and be linked to a document in such manner that the digital
signature is invalidated if any data on the document is altered.
Electronic reproductions of drawings, plan sheets, specifications,
studies, reports, plats, maps, and other engineering and surveying
work product that are distributed to reviewing agencies, owners, clients,
contractors, suppliers, and others must either contain the electronic
seal and digital signature as required by this chapter, or have a digital
signed and electronic sealed statement from the registrant transmitting
the same which shall read: "This document(s) was originally issued
and sealed by (name), Registration Number (number) on (date)".The
statement shall also include the statement that "The original documents
are stored at (location)", or "The original documents have been
destroyed and are no longer available", whichever is applicable. Sets
of plans or drawings must have this statement attached to every sheet
of the set. For specifications, reports, and studies, only the cover or
introductory sheet need include this statement.
The problem is coming up because when I print a drawing, sign and stamp it with ink, and scan it and email it to the client, I'm told that's in violation of the above.
I think I'm covered if I scan the wet-stamped drawing to PDF, and certify it using my password-protected file on my USB drive (that anyone could fraudulently make in my name, but at least I can say that I personally only created 1 such file). I would prefer to use option B where you just say "The originals are stored at my office, etc." because I can print straight from CAD to PDF and send them a nice vector-graphics drawing with infinite resolution, rather than an old-school image file.
Allen Wrench, post: 332438, member: 6172 wrote: Here's a snippet of the law (state of ND) I'm dealing with:
The term "signature", as used herein, shall mean a handwritten
identification containing the name of the person who applied it; or for
electronic or digital documents shall mean a digital signature that shall
include an electronic authentication process in a secure mode that
is attached to or logically associated with the electronic document to
which it is applied. The digital signature must be unique to, and under
the sole control of, the person using it; it must also be capable of
verification and be linked to a document in such manner that the digital
signature is invalidated if any data on the document is altered.Electronic reproductions of drawings, plan sheets, specifications,
studies, reports, plats, maps, and other engineering and surveying
work product that are distributed to reviewing agencies, owners, clients,
contractors, suppliers, and others must either contain the electronic
seal and digital signature as required by this chapter, or have a digital
signed and electronic sealed statement from the registrant transmitting
the same which shall read: "This document(s) was originally issued
and sealed by (name), Registration Number (number) on (date)".The
statement shall also include the statement that "The original documents
are stored at (location)", or "The original documents have been
destroyed and are no longer available", whichever is applicable. Sets
of plans or drawings must have this statement attached to every sheet
of the set. For specifications, reports, and studies, only the cover or
introductory sheet need include this statement.The problem is coming up because when I print a drawing, sign and stamp it with ink, and scan it and email it to the client, I'm told that's in violation of the above.
I think I'm covered if I scan the wet-stamped drawing to PDF, and certify it using my password-protected file on my USB drive (that anyone could fraudulently make in my name, but at least I can say that I personally only created 1 such file). I would prefer to use option B where you just say "The originals are stored at my office, etc." because I can print straight from CAD to PDF and send them a nice vector-graphics drawing with infinite resolution, rather than an old-school image file.
Your example provides a great example why, in my opinion, the state licensing board should not meddle in legal requirements for electronic signatures. They should allow the topic to be properly legislated (as it has been) by state, federal and international laws.
That being said, If you research what your ND legislators have passed regarding electronic signatures, you'll find a direct conflict between the Board requirements and the Legislature's requirements. Guess which ones control... I would be petitioning the Board to review its stance upon specifying the particulars of the signature process and simply require that documents prepared by licensed individuals must be signed and sealed. Let the commerce and trade laws as well as the professionals and their clients determine what procedure to use. The E-sign laws are designed to be flexible for a reason.
North Dakota Statutes
Title 9. Contracts and Obligations
Chapter 9-16. Electronic Transactions
Current through Chapter 484 and Chapters 499-551 of the 2015 Legislative Session
å¤ 9-16-06. Legal recognition of electronic records, electronic signatures, and electronic contracts
1. A record or signature may not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely because the record or signature is in electronic form.
2. A contract may not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely because an electronic record was used in the contract's formation.
3. If a law requires a record to be in writing, an electronic record satisfies the law.
4. If a law requires a signature, an electronic signature satisfies the law.
Cite as N.D.C.C. å¤ 9-16-06
Here's a link to the ND e-sign standards.
The business of land surveying has dramatically changed with the advent of digital technology. Not in terms of our choice of equipment, but in our dealings with interstate and international commerce. We need rules and regulations which open the door for technological advancements, not rules which inhibit the free exercise of trade.
JBS
JBStahl, post: 332536, member: 427 wrote: Your example provides a great example why, in my opinion, the state licensing board should not meddle in legal requirements for electronic signatures. They should allow the topic to be properly legislated (as it has been) by state, federal and international laws.
That being said, If you research what your ND legislators have passed regarding electronic signatures, you'll find a direct conflict between the Board requirements and the Legislature's requirements. Guess which ones control... I would be petitioning the Board to review its stance upon specifying the particulars of the signature process and simply require that documents prepared by licensed individuals must be signed and sealed. Let the commerce and trade laws as well as the professionals and their clients determine what procedure to use. The E-sign laws are designed to be flexible for a reason.
North Dakota Statutes
Title 9. Contracts and Obligations
Chapter 9-16. Electronic TransactionsCurrent through Chapter 484 and Chapters 499-551 of the 2015 Legislative Session
å¤ 9-16-06. Legal recognition of electronic records, electronic signatures, and electronic contracts
1. A record or signature may not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely because the record or signature is in electronic form.
2. A contract may not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely because an electronic record was used in the contract's formation.
3. If a law requires a record to be in writing, an electronic record satisfies the law.
4. If a law requires a signature, an electronic signature satisfies the law.
Cite as N.D.C.C. å¤ 9-16-06Here's a link to the ND e-sign standards.
The business of land surveying has dramatically changed with the advent of digital technology. Not in terms of our choice of equipment, but in our dealings with interstate and international commerce. We need rules and regulations which open the door for technological advancements, not rules which inhibit the free exercise of trade.
JBS
That's what I always thought too. Why is the state board (consisting of 5 or so people) trying to write their own laws when these perfectly good laws exist. You give me much to think about here. I think that the state board's laws in this case are way outdated and instead of coming up with a solution, they just enforce their ancient laws and slow down the process. Frustrating.
The ND language that Allen posted is very similar to the NCEES Model Rules and most likely used or referenced by quite a few other licensing jurisdictions.
While I don't necessarily agree entirely with JB since by their very charges licensing boards must address situations where licensees demonstrate responsible charge by affixing their required seal and signature, I do agree with him that when statutes and regulations are implemented other laws should be considered. Generally speaking, when regulations are proposed, there is some agency that is tasked with ensuring that language is not contradictory with other laws. In California that would be state Office of Administrative Law. Our regulations pertaining to electronic signatures is intentionally very simple to allow for technological advances where appropriately applied by the licensee.
JBStahl, post: 332536, member: 427 wrote: Your example provides a great example why, in my opinion, the state licensing board should not meddle in legal requirements for electronic signatures. They should allow the topic to be properly legislated (as it has been) by state, federal and international laws.
That being said, If you research what your ND legislators have passed regarding electronic signatures, you'll find a direct conflict between the Board requirements and the Legislature's requirements. Guess which ones control... I would be petitioning the Board to review its stance upon specifying the particulars of the signature process and simply require that documents prepared by licensed individuals must be signed and sealed. Let the commerce and trade laws as well as the professionals and their clients determine what procedure to use. The E-sign laws are designed to be flexible for a reason.
North Dakota Statutes
Title 9. Contracts and Obligations
Chapter 9-16. Electronic TransactionsCurrent through Chapter 484 and Chapters 499-551 of the 2015 Legislative Session
å¤ 9-16-06. Legal recognition of electronic records, electronic signatures, and electronic contracts
1. A record or signature may not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely because the record or signature is in electronic form.
2. A contract may not be denied legal effect or enforceability solely because an electronic record was used in the contract's formation.
3. If a law requires a record to be in writing, an electronic record satisfies the law.
4. If a law requires a signature, an electronic signature satisfies the law.
Cite as N.D.C.C. å¤ 9-16-06Here's a link to the ND e-sign standards.
The business of land surveying has dramatically changed with the advent of digital technology. Not in terms of our choice of equipment, but in our dealings with interstate and international commerce. We need rules and regulations which open the door for technological advancements, not rules which inhibit the free exercise of trade.
JBS
Unfortunately most of the state law Allen Wrench quoted is straight out of the https://cdn.ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Model_Rules_2014.pdf&sa=U&ved=0CAYQFjABahUKEwjv8YrUwrbHAhVHJR4KHaMsBQk&client=internal-uds-cse&usg=AFQjCNHrtngEjCRpvRO38Kwlraw2ClCg5 w'">NCEES Model Rules for Engineering and Surveying Boards
Computer-generated seals not signed with a digital signature may be used on final original
drawings provided that a handwritten signature is placed adjacent to or across the seal and the
date is written below the seal. Drawings, specifications, plans, reports, and documents that do not
require sealing may be transmitted electronically but shall have the generated seal, if any,
removed before transmitting and shall have the following inserted in lieu of the signature and
date: ÛÏThis document originally issued and sealed by [insert name of licensee], P.E.#______/
P.S.#______ on [insert date of sealing]. This document should not be considered a sealed document.Û
Drawings, reports, and documents that are signed using a digital signature must have an electronic
authentication process attached to or logically associated with the electronic document.
The digital signature must be
a. Unique to the individual using it
b. Capable of verification
c. Under the sole control of the individual using it
d. Linked to a document in such a manner that the digital signature is invalidated if any data in
the document is changed.
A digital signature that uses a process approved by the board will be presumed to meet the criteria
set forth in subsections 8 aÛÒd above. Any hard copy printed from the transmitted electronic file
shall bear the facsimile of the signature and seal and be a confirmation that the electronic file
was not altered after the initial digital signing of the file. Any alterations to the file shall
cause the facsimile of the signature to be voided.
Tennessee has separate Boards for Surveyors and Engineers but both have nearly if not identical language with regard to digital signatures.
Ha, Stephen and I were posting at the same time on this
This topic was addressed by the Texas Board of Professional Land Surveying today at their regular board meeting. They stated that they have already issued a policy on this and that is their must be a paper copy wet sealed and signed and retained in the records. I asked how they reconcile their position with the fact that they contradict state law on digital signatures and they offered no clear answer. I asked their counsel from the Attorney General's office how board rules supersede a state law. He was unfamiliar with the particular law and asked me for a citation. I imagine further clarification might be forthcoming at the next board meeting.
AN
After receiving an muddled and non-specific reply to my question about digital signatures, I received the following clarification from the executive director of the Texas Board of Professional Land Surveyors today.
A committee was assigned to study ÛÏdigital signaturesÛ and made the following recommendations to the Board:
- A document signed and sealed with a digital signature from a digital signature program or by a company that provides that service is acceptable. The surveyor shall retain digitally signed/sealed originals and a hand signed/sealed original in his/her permanent files.
- Any electronic submittal that is an unalterable copy (i.e. PDF or similar format) of an original that includes a signature and seal should be considered a copy no different than a copy of an original from a copy machine and therefore acceptable. The surveyor shall retain the signed/sealed original in his/her permanent files.
- A digital graphics program such as AutoCad, MicroStation or other similar platforms where it is possible to add a digitized (not digital) signature and seal into the drawing as a separate entity, shall not be allowed outside of the control of the surveyor and transmittal of such shall not be acceptable.
This seems a little ridiculous to require a hand signed and sealed original in the files to back up a digital signed electronic drawing. If the original digital drawing is filed on a server, what point is a paper copy as it is NOT the original?
The Attorney General's office sent me a reply with a link to the specific law regarding e-signatures which has commentary attached. The specific provision that is applicable in this case is the commentary that states:
Requirement for Communication by a Specific Method. Where a statute requires communication by a specific method, that separate statutory requirement controls. For example, Section 62.005 of the Property Code provides that notices required to be sent to real estate brokers in certain circumstances under Chapter 62 must be sent by certified mail, return receipt requested. That statute controls over Chapter 43 [now, Chapter 322] and thus electronic notice to the broker is not permitted to be effective even if the parties wish to agree otherwise.
So in Texas, even if one issues a valid, signed electronic document you must also print out a copy, sign it, stamp it and stick it in a filing cabinet in case the board asks for it.
I stand corrected.
