Got a call this morning from a real estate services company saying they need a certifications that no changes have been made on two ALTA I performed around four years ago. Now in the past I have done updates on ALTA's (including these two) but never just a certification that nothing has changed. I would figure that I visit the sites to look for changes and if there are none then update the ALTA using the old title report. This is still going to cost them but I almost get the impression that they think this is on the house.
Has anyone had this experience and what you have you done?
I would do everything just as if I was updating the survey except for producing a new plat. Send them the letter they are requesting and bill them the same as an updated survey.
> Got a call this morning from a real estate services company saying they need a certifications that no changes have been made on two ALTA I performed around four years ago. Now in the past I have done updates on ALTA's (including these two) but never just a certification that nothing has changed. I would figure that I visit the sites to look for changes and if there are none then update the ALTA using the old title report. This is still going to cost them but I almost get the impression that they think this is on the house.
>
> Has anyone had this experience and what you have you done?
Have only been involved in a few ALTA surveys years ago. I would tell them you will proceed with the required field work as soon as you have time to review the updated title report. Thirty days is enough time to have easements or other changes in the title that should be addressed. Four years is much longer than I would trust the old title report.
If the "real estate services company" questions this have a list of concerns you need to address ready. Below is a list of concerns I would have before considering certifying the surveys. Think about these and you will likely be able to add a few more that would be site specific.
Field work would require recovery of monuments and verification they have not been disturbed. That means a few measurements must be taken. I have had neighbors of the client pull and reset pins without apparent damage to caps. If you don't find that you are buying liability.
If you took photos during the original ALTA verify that buildings have not been altered. Any changes in appearance of buildings would require checking the building foot print has not changed. Just adding a new facade to a building can create zoning conflicts that should be noted.
Also parking lot repave & repaint of commercial sites may change number of parking spaces. Again this could violate zoning requirements for number of spaces and/or handicapped access requirements.
> Got a call this morning from a real estate services company saying they need a certifications that no changes have been made on two ALTA I performed around four years ago. Now in the past I have done updates on ALTA's (including these two) but never just a certification that nothing has changed. I would figure that I visit the sites to look for changes and if there are none then update the ALTA using the old title report. This is still going to cost them but I almost get the impression that they think this is on the house.
>
> Has anyone had this experience and what you have you done?
Treat it as an update.
Need updated title report to verify nothing has changed.
Need updated Field visit to verify nothing has changed.
Need to update to current ALTA standards (If applicable) if they want it to say ALTA Survey again.
Need updated contract, scope and fees to do anything more than answer the phone.;-)
Dallas Morlan makes some good points about what to watch for. And four years is a long time for this kind of update. Many things could have changed, and it's possible that changes to the survey drawings will be needed.
There is usually a "middleman factor" when someone orders an ALTA or anything relating to one. In this case the update letters are probably for the use of a lender or some other third party. I've found that it pays to ask for an actual copy of that third party's request, and sit tight until you get it, which you eventually will. Someone at the real-estate services firm may have misunderstood the request or mis-quoted it.
Broad statements such as "no changes on site" in an update letter could lead to trouble. It's safer if you say something very specific, such as that the site was field checked on such-and-such a date and that no changes were observed in visible above-ground improvements. Of course you don't want to make any statements about underground utilities, or anything else that you haven't re-checked.
It also helps to send out something specific in advance about how you expect to get paid. I'd quote such a job hourly and include a rate schedule.
Not like you are describing.
I would also tell them I will only do an update for the owner of the property.
I would ask for a current title commitment to compare with the old one. I would ask for a Table A items checkoff that compared with the old one. I would update the deed records myself to see if there were any changes. I would go to the field and determine if anything had changed. I would recover or reset all of the corners. I would then rectify the survey with the date of the current title commitment and the date of the field work. I would charge an appropriate fee for all of the above.
> I would ask for a current title commitment to compare with the old one...
Whether they realize it yet or not, they are going to need you to recertify to a current title report. Without that it has no value to them. Remember that a large part of what they are paying you for is renewed access to your E&O. This isn't a case where you charge by the hour.
Amongst other things already mentioned have One-Call remark the utilities for a map in hand check.
I was going to say what Jared said.
This is an issue that I have addressed ALTA about several times. Their take on this matches nothing posted here.
The current specs,in Paragraph 4 Records Research, it clearly states "Complete copies of the most recent title commitment......... shall be provided to the Surveyor.
According to the folks at ALTA, they cannot require the agents to pay for a new title insurance commitment report. So, you use the "most current" report. Even if it is 9 years old. Just be sure to note on the face of the plat the Title Commitment Report.....Number and Date.... to which you are certifying.
That's straight from the horse's mouth. They seem to think that they can force YOU to do it there way, yet they cannot force their members to do squat. A very one sided proposition.
Now before everybody says I am wrong and full of "snit", do like I did and ask the people at ALTA their interpretation. I think you will be as amazed as much as I am.
4 years it to long in time. Many things could have happened on that site, new easements, lease lines, subdivisions, parking agreements, cross access agreements... I would treat it as new ALTA/ACSM Land Title Survey. Your advantage over others in the price game is that you did recently survey the property. Get the new title report and revisit the site. They (the lawyers) are getting paid as if it was a new client/job why shouldn't you?
Terry
Yes, I agree, use whatever title report they provide, however, I do not do "affadavit of no change" without a complete update of my survey. I must prepare a new updated survey or I will NOT sign your letter. Of course I will provide them a proposal at about 1/2 what the original alta cost, provided their are in fact no changes. If their are changes the price will reflect that.
Don't forget that the ALTA standards changed in 2011 (as well as the Table A item numbers).
I would treat it as a full update and charge appropriately.
Miguel A. Escobar, LSLS, RPLS
🙂 NO CHANGES?
who are we kidding? ourselves?
treat as an update and charge for the work, BUT to say NO CHANGES? NO WAY!
these folks just keep backing the surveyor into a corner.....
What I posted above is from the 2011 standards.
In the last year I have been provided 9 year old Title Commitment Reports on 2 surveys. When we requested aan updated report , we were told to "use what we sent you. Nothing has changed." The "update" was performed and THAT TCR was referenced.
ALTA's are meaning less and less. It's just that the young people working at the lending agencies have been taught that they have to have one. They have no idea what they mean. The majority that we get now are "standard ALTA's". That means a survey that meets our states minimum technical standards and has ALTA written on it and their certification.
Either way, in the vast majority of cases you are going to get the most current TCR and not a new one. That's now part of their fee that they can slide over to yhe profit pile.
> Yes, I agree, use whatever title report they provide, however, I do not do "affadavit of no change" without a complete update of my survey. I must prepare a new updated survey or I will NOT sign your letter. Of course I will provide them a proposal at about 1/2 what the original alta cost, provided their are in fact no changes. If their are changes the price will reflect that.
Sorry but I believe using the title report they provided would conflict with the Ohio Administrative Code (OAC) "Minimum Standards" quoted, with emphasis added, below. A four year old title report can not be defended as the "best possible set of written evidence of every corner and line of the property being surveyed." I would not put my license at risk. That means I tell them I will be doing additional document research, as required by the ALTA standards, to comply with the more restrictive OAC.
Chapter 4733-37 Standards for Boundary Surveys
4733-37-02 Research and investigation.
(A) The surveyor shall consult deeds and other documents, including those for adjacent parcels, in order to assemble the best possible set of written evidence of every corner and line of the property being surveyed.
(B) After all necessary written documents have been analyzed, the survey shall be based on a field investigation of the property. The surveyor shall make a thorough search for physical monuments, and analyze evidence of monumentation and occupation. In addition, the surveyor shall, when necessary, confer with the owner(s) of the adjoining property and the owner(s) of the property being surveyed.
R.C. 119.032 review dates: 08/18/2008 and 08/18/2013
Promulgated Under: 119.03
Statutory Authority: 4733.07
Rule Amplifies: 4733.20
Prior Effective Dates: 11/1/2003
Thanks for all of the input. I have done numerous ALTA updates over the years. In fact the two sites in question were updated four years ago, the original surveys were done about three years prior to that. I have just never had a title company tell me they would like only a re-certification, not an update. They also made it sound like they would like it for free.
I've told them that I will provide an updated ATLA based on the old commitment and the 2011 certificate. I will review the current vesting deed to make sure that the boundary has not changed; make a site visit to verify that no improvements have been made in the last four years along the property lines and look for evidence of newly created un-recorded access issues; update the certificate to the 2011 while eliminating most of the table A items; and revise the sheets from the borders required by the last client. All of this for a little over 50% of the original cost, which is exactly what I charged for the updates.
I also wouldn't put much credence in their "opinion" . . . and opinion is just that nothing more and nothing less than an "opinion".
An opinion doesn't say you're right . . . it doesn't say you're wrong
"In my opinion" . . . just doesn't really say much at all