Ron Lang, post: 389214, member: 6445 wrote: Who pays for the "TRs" on the adjacent parcels?
I did read above you've contacted the design team, which I think is the right thing to do. I agree with other posts, surveyors can't be watchdogs on past projects once they are complete. You just happen to be in a unique situation and caught it. You've never mentioned (or I apologize if I missed them), as to if this is the Same client as the first ALTA? To answer your question, I've always had good luck picking up the phone and calling the title company and nicely asking for it while stating you're a Land Surveyor working for so and so (Client) and was hoping they could help you. For free. Use the order # of the new TR. If none of the above works, pick up the old TR, and let the title company know they have some easements not showing up on the report you were given and they need to update it themselves. The deeds should show the exceptions as well if they don't want to give out the full TR.
Surveypro Chad, post: 389217, member: 12063 wrote: I did read above you've contacted the design team, which I think is the right thing to do. I agree with other posts, surveyors can't be watchdogs on past projects once they are complete. You just happen to be in a unique situation and caught it. You've never mentioned (or I apologize if I missed them), as to if this is the Same client as the first ALTA? To answer your question, I've always had good luck picking up the phone and calling the title company and nicely asking for it while stating you're a Land Surveyor working for so and so (Client) and was hoping they could help you. For free. Use the order # of the new TR. If none of the above works, pick up the old TR, and let the title company know they have some easements not showing up on the report you were given and they need to update it themselves. The deeds should show the exceptions as well if they don't want to give out the full TR.
Yes for the subject parcel only. You said I should have all the surrounding title reports as well.
I don't know of any title company that researches the title of surrounding properties when they research the subject property.
To answer your question, different clients, different title agencies.
Good thing is they haven't closed the loan, the 1st ALTA can be updated without issue. And I got an attaboy from Client 1.
Who had been good to me over the years.
Also to give you an idea of the schedule b 11 exceptions. They started with a. and ended with b2. One of the largest binders I have ever reviewed.
Ron Lang, post: 389203, member: 6445 wrote: 18VAC10-20-370. Minimum Standards and Procedures for Land Boundary Surveying Practice.
A. The minimum standards and procedures set forth in this section are to be used for land boundary surveys performed in the Commonwealth of Virginia. The application of the professional's seal, signature and date as required by these regulations shall be evidence that the land boundary survey is correct to the best of the professional's knowledge, information, and belief, and complies with the minimum standards and procedures set forth in this chapter.B. Research procedure. The professional shall search the land records for the proper description of the land to be surveyed and obtain the description of adjoining land(s) as it pertains to the common boundaries. The professional shall have the additional responsibility to utilize such other available data pertinent to the survey being performed from any other known sources. Evidence found, from all known sources, including evidence found in the field, shall be carefully compared in order to aid in the establishment of the correct boundaries of the land being surveyed. The professional shall clearly identify on the plats, maps, and reports inconsistencies found in the research of common boundaries between the land being surveyed and the adjoining land(s). It is not the intent of this regulation to require the professional to research the question of title or encumbrances on the land involved.
"Evidence found, from all known sources, ..."
ALL known sources?! Wow- that is a heavy, heavy burden. How could any one ever show that they had looked at ALL known sources? I would not operate under those requirements.
So you go through ALL the easements of record, and do a search back through EVERY pertinent deed? Or do you just get a title report for every job? Title companies are only looking back 30 years now, so trusting them would sure be a gamble...
Jim in AZ, post: 389231, member: 249 wrote: "Evidence found, from all known sources, ..."
ALL known sources?! Wow- that is a heavy, heavy burden. How could any one ever show that they had looked at ALL known sources? I would not operate under those requirements.
So you go through ALL the easements of record, and do a search back through EVERY pertinent deed? Or do you just get a title report for every job? Title companies are only looking back 30 years now, so trusting them would sure be a gamble...
No I myself do not search for encumbrances, but yes I do research a parcel to its creation. All known sources to me is just that, if I in the course of my research of the "boundaries" have obtained all information available to the prudent surveyor, including parole, physical and any other evidence thay I am aware of then I have met that requirement. The last paragraph of the research standards clearly exempts the Va surveyor of the responsibility to show or research all record encumbrances.
It sounds to me like to many of us are looking for reasons to provide as little service to our clients as possible. Why is it standard practice in some places not to show easements on boundary surveys? The existance and location of an easement is often just as important as a boundary.
A title report is a good start, but those that are unwilling to research beyond what is provided to them may be meeting their state minimum standards but are selling their clients and our proffesion short. If we want to be seen as more than expert measures we need to act the part.
aliquot, post: 389277, member: 2486 wrote: It sounds to me like to many of us are looking for reasons to provide as little service to our clients as possible. Why is it standard practice in some places not to show easements on boundary surveys? The existance and location of an easement is often just as important as a boundary.
A title report is a good start, but those that are unwilling to research beyond what is provided to them may be meeting their state minimum standards but are selling their clients and our proffesion short. If we want to be seen as more than expert measures we need to act the part.
Surely you jest! It would take me weeks if not months to search through 140 years of our County records to determine the existence of easement affecting a parcel. If you are performing an ALTA Survey you cannot show easements that are not listed in the Title Report - the Title Co. will not allow it.
Jim in AZ, post: 389315, member: 249 wrote: If you are performing an ALTA Survey you cannot show easements that are not listed in the Title Report - the Title Co. will not allow it.
That's terrible. If you have a record of an easement (however you came to have it), it should be shown unless the title company can find a record of its elimination.
Jim in AZ, post: 389315, member: 249 wrote: If you are performing an ALTA Survey you cannot show easements that are not listed in the Title Report - the Title Co. will not allow it.
I work for the Client's best interest and not the Title Company. I have gone against the Title Company's wishes on several occasions. The Client needs to know what the Title Company is not insuring. We are not the Title Company's agent.
Jim in AZ, post: 389315, member: 249 wrote: Surely you jest! It would take me weeks if not months to search through 140 years of our County records to determine the existence of easement affecting a parcel. If you are performing an ALTA Survey you cannot show easements that are not listed in the Title Report - the Title Co. will not allow it.
The title company isn't your client. The only way I could imagine a title company complaining about an easement being shown is if they belive it is not valid.
I don't know what the record situation is where you work, but I suspect you are exagerating. I have worked in many states, including colonial states and PLSS states and have never encountered an area like this.
The level of research I think is appropriate is not to the point that you can issue a guarantee that every encumbrance is shown on the plat, but only a reasonably diligent search. If a competent surveyor and the title company can't find a recorded easment after a reasonable search it is very unlikely that it will ever surface.
Unless the property in question has been through a rigorous platting process it is usually neccisiary to trace the chain of title back to the beginning, or to a known tract to determine the boundary. With that information and a title report the majority of the research is ussualy done.
aliquot, post: 389335, member: 2486 wrote: The only way I could imagine a title company complaining about an easement being shown is if they belive it is not valid.
This is my experience as well. 99% of the ALTA surveys I perform are based on the commitment for title insurance...not a title report or actual title insurance policy. The title company is in the process of evaluating their risk prior to issuing insurance and the survey is an integral part in their decision as to what to insure and what to exclude.
The times where I have had knowledge of an item that may affect the quality of title to a property that the title company didn't know about, and have brought it to everyone on the teams attention, the result hasn't been chastisement by the title company, rather gratitude on their part and their recommending me to other potential clients.
Bill93, post: 389328, member: 87 wrote: That's terrible. If you have a record of an easement (however you came to have it), it should be shown unless the title company can find a record of its elimination.
I agree that it's terrible - but that's how it works. The Survey and the Title Report are integral parts of each other and must both show the same items. You and I may not like it but the Title Co. is in charge in these situations. I have been asked by several Title Cos. on several occasions to remove easements of which I was aware but that they did not want shown... One of these situations cost one company over $300K. The ALTA Survey is a COMPLETELY different animal than a normal boundary survey.
aliquot, post: 389277, member: 2486 wrote: It sounds to me like to many of us are looking for reasons to provide as little service to our clients as possible. Why is it standard practice in some places not to show easements on boundary surveys? The existance and location of an easement is often just as important as a boundary.
A title report is a good start, but those that are unwilling to research beyond what is provided to them may be meeting their state minimum standards but are selling their clients and our proffesion short. If we want to be seen as more than expert measures we need to act the part.
It appears to me you are wanting everyone to buy a Cadillac when all they want is a Ford. You, nor I, can make anyone pay for a survey that shows any and all easements if they don't want such a thing.
Tommy Young, post: 389347, member: 703 wrote: It appears to me you are wanting everyone to buy a Cadillac when all they want is a Ford. You, nor I, can make anyone pay for a survey that shows any and all easements if they don't want such a thing.
We are telling them that the Ford has been in a wreck, in a flood and may not perform as expected. Showing the easements is not an upgrade. It is revealing where his ownership rights are limited by the terms of the easement. What property owner would wish to remain ignorant of such things?
lmbrls: That's not a great analogy, unless they bought the property without benefit of a title report. With a title report, they were told about the wreck, and the flood, and the performance.
The survey of encumbrances is often a huge upgrade and would often exceed the cost of the boundary survey. Imagine a gas line or power line easement tied to corners miles away in each direction (if you tell me to just use the pipeline or poles, I'd ask why do you need a surveyor then?). Imagine easements based on old property configurations, where you've got to solve those boundaries, even if your parcel was created last week. Do you get a title report on properties prior to quoting a fee or fee estimate?
lmbrls, post: 389073, member: 6823 wrote: So in some states, it is perfectly acceptable for a person to buy property with a survey not showing the recorded easements that affect the property? Once again, notice that I said recorded. Is it required that easements and exceptions be listed on the most recent Warranty Deed? Yes we are also responsible for "easement due to visible usage" as Tommy indicated. Obviously, a person would be a fool not to have title insurance in any state. Seems like it should be required in these states. I guess we all have our specific sets of challenges in our geographic area of practice. Thanks for the insight.
Absolutely. Our recorded surveys never show easements, unless they negotiated with the survey. Then, the documentation for that easement is provided by a title company. If the legal reads "together with such and such access easement", that would typically be shown. And, no, the most recent Warranty Deed will not include easements and exceptions. I suppose if the property was in the Torrens index, it would, but otherwise, no.
As stated above, and ALTA is a different animal. It is not uncommon to find information that the title company hasn't provided, and that is communicated to them for review and is added or not per their discretion to the title report. What is actually on the ground (gravel road?) is my discretion. It is a map done to their standards (and mine), and it contains the information that they give me. I do not purport to have ALL easements, etc, I only have what they give me.
BajaOR, post: 389426, member: 9139 wrote: lmbrls: That's not a great analogy, unless they bought the property without benefit of a title report. With a title report, they were told about the wreck, and the flood, and the performance.
The survey of encumbrances is often a huge upgrade and would often exceed the cost of the boundary survey. Imagine a gas line or power line easement tied to corners miles away in each direction (if you tell me to just use the pipeline or poles, I'd ask why do you need a surveyor then?). Imagine easements based on old property configurations, where you've got to solve those boundaries, even if your parcel was created last week. Do you get a title report on properties prior to quoting a fee or fee estimate?
I either would either require a title report or estimate the fee based on me doing all the research which would be more expensive. How can you possibly determine the boundary of an unplatted parcel without a complete title history?
A high percentage of new tracts we create are focused on exactly where are the new boundaries and what is the area enclosed. Anything else is of negligible value to the buyer/seller for a variety of reasons. They can see there is access via some public road. They already know if certain utilities are in relatively close proximity and what it may cost them to get the service line installed. They can see the little oil wells pumping. What they hire us to do is the part they can't do for themselves, which is creating the boundary.
We will just have to agree to disagree about all recorded easements being on the survey. I will never agree that it is OK not to reveal easements to which I have knowledge to my Client. I realize that easements on urban commercial property will most likely have a greater affect than large rural tracts. Once the Client is made aware of the easement, they can decide if they want it accurately located where their may be little impact. A very evident power transmission line across property used for agriculture is not going to be a major concern. Once again, my major objection is withholding known information from the Client.
It is interesting that we Surveyors complain about not being able to charge adequately for our services and then state that easements will not be shown because it take to long and is too expensive. Maybe we should just wait and have the GIS community show the public where the easements are on their property. We can always continue to be Boundary Line Surveyor and let others deal with all those pesky property issues. I believe that we are the best people to assist the Public with the actual location of covenants, easements and restrictions. Notice that I said location and not impact as we are not attorneys.
BajaOR, post: 389426, member: 9139 wrote: lmbrls: That's not a great analogy, unless they bought the property without benefit of a title report. With a title report, they were told about the wreck, and the flood, and the performance.
The survey of encumbrances is often a huge upgrade and would often exceed the cost of the boundary survey. Imagine a gas line or power line easement tied to corners miles away in each direction (if you tell me to just use the pipeline or poles, I'd ask why do you need a surveyor then?). Imagine easements based on old property configurations, where you've got to solve those boundaries, even if your parcel was created last week. Do you get a title report on properties prior to quoting a fee or fee estimate?
I didn't really like the analogy either. I was trying to work with the one that was given. My major concern is Surveyors having knowledge that they do not share with their clients. As demonstrated in this thread, what I do is not the standard everywhere. Whether the Client provides a Title Report or not, our fee will include at a minimum researching Subject Properties as far back as my professional judgement deems necessary. From the most recent Warranty Deed, we research to current. We also research the adjoining properties and at a minimum get the most recent deed. I am not quite understanding why, "The survey of encumbrances is often a huge upgrade and would often exceed the cost of the boundary survey. Imagine a gas line or power line easement tied to corners miles away in each direction (if you tell me to just use the pipeline or poles, I'd ask why do you need a surveyor then?). Imagine easements based on old property configurations, where you've got to solve those boundaries, even if your parcel was created last week.", any of these items that increases your fee is seen as a problem if that is what the Client needs.
lmbrls, post: 389531, member: 6823 wrote: We will just have to agree to disagree about all recorded easements being on the survey. I will never agree that it is OK not to reveal easements to which I have knowledge to my Client. I realize that easements on urban commercial property will most likely have a greater affect than large rural tracts. Once the Client is made aware of the easement, they can decide if they want it accurately located where their may be little impact. A very evident power transmission line across property used for agriculture is not going to be a major concern. Once again, my major objection is withholding known information from the Client.
It is interesting that we Surveyors complain about not being able to charge adequately for our services and then state that easements will not be shown because it take to long and is too expensive. Maybe we should just wait and have the GIS community show the public where the easements are on their property. We can always continue to be Boundary Line Surveyor and let others deal with all those pesky property issues. I believe that we are the best people to assist the Public with the actual location of covenants, easements and restrictions. Notice that I said location and not impact as we are not attorneys.
Imbris,
You do understand that this is a liability issue, don't you? It's not about withholding known information, its about the unknown information that you don't show. If you depict "known" easements your client has every right to think that you have shown ALL easements. If one that you were unaware of pops up down the road, and your client, or even a third party, is damaged, guess who will be held responsible? Correct, and your E&O carrier more than likely will not cover you. There have been articles written about this that you could find, but it would be easier to ask you E&O professional.
As far as "withholding known information" goes, it is possible that you could be required to do so on an ALTA Survey Map if the Title Co. does not want it shown. Title Co. searches currently do not go back more than 30 years. If you notify them of one older one that they did not list, they may or may not decide to include it. If you are uncomfortable with that your option is not performing the work.
