ALTA

I'd like to see the finished product.

I have made many complaints about those that under-value their surveys. How they stay in business is beyond me. So far, every possible way I have thought of, is illegal. Since I don't want to speculate, I'll just say that if the land owner can get a decent product for that price, then he has pulled the rabbit out of his hat.

I feel your pain. Just got undercut on an ALTA 11 acres 37 apartment buildings etc for 4500. In this area we are our own worst enemy. Seems to encourage low prices when there is an existing map to work from. Wonder how that could be??

14 acres

91 buildings

91 unique sets of utility riser configurations

$4600

Saw the finished product - it is superb, in the top 1% of anything I've seen in 42 years. It is beyond my comprehension... We could not have performed the field work for $4600, and this guy came from 150 miles away to do it.

Well Jim, it wasn't me either. Super CAD & Super Crew's do that drive by stuff. Dumb arses put their alleged seal on to make it official. Hope it got recorded, as the BTR is looking at that stuff in a big way.... coming soon to a state near you, especially here in AZ

maybe + $10,000 ?

I'd be over double that easy, probably more like 2.5X that number.

> 13 acres
> 13 apartment buildings
> completion within 10 (TEN!) business days.
>
> $7800.
>
> I just don't understand.

Well, if they took the entire 10 days at 10 hours a day that would be a average hourly billable rate of $78 per hour. If you are using a 2 man crew (or less), is that really that bad? If you are set up small with low overhead, a project like that should be well within your reach. Now whether they could have gotten more is another question.

Our hourly rate for a two man crew is almost 2.5 times that much.

> Our hourly rate for a two man crew is almost 2.5 times that much.

That may be true for you, but I think the issue is that a single surveyor with a robot and computer is fully capable of doing one of these small ALTA surveys. You don't need a large amount of manpower (and large amount of overhead) to complete one of these jobs. That makes it hard to compete if you are in a traditional survey/engineering firm with however many crews, cad techs, survey analysts, PLSs, clerical staff, marketing staff, etc.

That would be a pretty nice job for me, and doable. I'm very efficient and methodical with years of experience, so, yes, seems good to me.

I'm not saying this to hurt anyone's feelings, but the question is not how can they do it, but rather why can't you do that. They could be cutting corners, but I wouldn't assume that. It could be that they have it down to a science and are motivated.

One of our peers went with me once to do a large apartment complex, and one of his comments was, "You knew as soon as you got here how you were going to do it, didn't you." Compare that with some survey crews I've seen having a conference on the hood of the truck at 8:30 am trying to figure out how to get started.

> Well, if they took the entire 10 days at 10 hours a day that would be a average hourly billable rate of $78 per hour. If you are using a 2 man crew (or less), is that really that bad?

$78 per hour is great if your surveying for a hobby or moonlighting after work. Unless your able to bill 40 hours a week 52 weeks a years then I don't think its sustainable, especially with a 2 man crew.

>I think the issue is that a single surveyor with a robot and computer is fully capable of doing one of these small ALTA surveys. You don't need a large amount of manpower (and large amount of overhead) to complete one of these jobs. That makes it hard to compete if you are in a traditional survey/engineering firm with however many crews, cad techs, survey analysts, PLSs, clerical staff, marketing staff, etc.

Why should the solo surveyor with a robot and computer do it that much cheaper?

I work by myself, with a robot and gps, out of my house, does that mean that the survey I produce is worth less than the survey that the "traditional firm" produces?

Is $7800 for an ALTA that has to be completed in 10 days too cheap? Probably so but without knowing the specifics of the site its tough to put a price on it.

Corey

When those guys are older and stiffer in the joints, they will be wondering why they can't make money at those prices anymore.

:-S

> That may be true for you, but I think the issue is that a single surveyor with a robot and computer is fully capable of doing one of these small ALTA surveys. You don't need a large amount of manpower (and large amount of overhead) to complete one of these jobs. That makes it hard to compete if you are in a traditional survey/engineering firm with however many crews, cad techs, survey analysts, PLSs, clerical staff, marketing staff, etc.

I see your point, but its 13 acres, not exactly tiny.

My 'crew' consists of me and an engineer tech. I have a CAD operator that my other two partners utilize as well. We are a smaller firm. Even most moonlight guys charge $100 per hour for a crew.

Thing is, if you had quoted $7,825 on the job described above, you wouldn't have your 5-10 days worth of work, and might be complaining about it on the internet right now. It's probably easier to run yourself out of business by over-quoting than under-quoting. Sure, we'd all like to make more money, but the reality is that business is competitive and as a wise rpls.com poster once said, charge what the market will bare. That works both ways.

Mr. Tie,

How do your numbers work out?

10 days delivery time does not mean 10 hours for 10 days of survey crew time, in my experience. I realize that you were making a simple example to make a point.

Even with GPS, a small scanner and automatic linework, the field work would have to be done half that time to allow for CAD work and the legal stuff. I don't know the site conditions, but... That's more like 20 hours for 5 days.

And, if you are a one man outfit doing both field and office stuff, that's more like 30 hours for 10 days. I'm kidding, of course, but trying to make a silly point.

Field work, CAD and Professional legal due diligence costs aside, one is accepting a bit of liability with an ALTA.

I'm just sayin'.

JA, PLS SoCal

I was envisioning a 2 man (or one man with robot) crew working five 10 hour days and the office surveyor working five 10 hour days for simplicity's sake. That would yield an average billable rate of $78 per hour. That is if it really took them that long to do the job. If they did it in less lime it would obviously be better. For example, If you could do it in 80 hours your billable rate would would approach $100 per hour. If you are a one man shop, that doesn't sound too bad.

As others have touched on I think the question is not whether or not it could be done for that price, but rather should it be done for that price. If you know everyone else is going to charge $13,000 and you can do it for $7000 that doesn't mean you charge $7,000. You should charge $12,500! Why would you consider it a good practice to leave money on the table like that?

No one has mentioned anything about surveying the adjoiners. The research time, reconnaissance time, and field time to tie in all the adjoiners, can be substantial. I can imagine quite a few adjoiners to a 13 acre apartment complex. That's beside the main project at hand.

Around here it happens all of the time.
I've lost a few ALTA surveys because of my fee. They get it for less than half of what I would charge. I'm in a recording state and state BOR says you set missing corners and file a plat. That doesn't happen around here. I've been called to do a boundary after an ALTA was to have been performed. I got a copy of the certified survey and told the client that the boundary should have been determined in the ALTA. The client didn't care. The ALTA was a box to check off on the transaction they were working on. That particular surveyor has had his license revoked.
I've got a proposal out for 7 ALTA's for an investment group. I more than likely will not get the work because of my fee of $6800 each. I'm pretty sure who will get the work and there will never be a filed plat and he is the county surveyor to boot. I'll ask the investment group representative if I can get a copy of the surveys to review at no fee, but experience has shown in the past that they don't want any red flags raised before or after the closing of the property.
It's not all about your fee. It's about the darn box being checked off.

SD