It was just a matter of time.
A guy called today to request a metes and bounds description of a pair of lots we surveyed for him back in '02. These lots are part of a subdivision platted in the early '70s...typical city Lot/Block/Subdivision description.
I didn't have an opportunity to ask Why? before he went on a rant about "needing the description for the BLM so he could bring patent forward to obtain allodial title to the land and not have to pay property taxes".
Of course, he also mentioned not needing a driver license, vehicle registration, or the obligation to pay income taxes, etc.
I just listened and told him I'd get back to him at my earliest convenience.
I did a quick Google search and found a .pdf doc title The Final Solution to Property Tax that probably typical of what fuels guys like him.
How would you handle a request like this? Would you sell descriptions to him and his friends?
It's an interesting topic.
In theory you could start a pretty good revolution right about now doing something similar: If everyone who had a mortage being "managed" by MERS got a new survey and then filed a quiet title action, MERS would not be able to figure out who is holding the paper in the current microsecond mortgage security market, and the holder of the note would probably never find out in time to show up. Bingo, 1/3 of americans would wind up holding their houses free and clear.
Trouble is, it would crash the economy, because everything else is hypothecated on those mortgage cash flows.
As far as "bringing the patent forward", well, great idea, but nothing magic. He needs to read the fine print for a few more years.
The Treaty of Paris (1792) did not grant anything but fee simple surface rights. Why the supposed loser was dictating terms to the victor is another historical curiosity left for the student to research.
If you are licensed you have already implicitly agreed not to cause such troubles. More fine print. Tell him he needs to get one of his sovereign buddies to do the (unlicensed) survey because you are a 14th Amendment Citizen and not allowed to do such things.
I suppose you could give him a proper survey and he could be on his merry way. Just sounds like he is not clear on the concept and you will be to blame when it doesn't work the magic he wants.
a fool and his money are soon parted..write the description, charge accordingly and get cash up front..
> I suppose you could give him a proper survey and he could be on his merry way. Just sounds like he is not clear on the concept and you will be to blame when it doesn't work the magic he wants.
Yes. "Somebody's gotta do it." 😉
He doesn't want to pay anyone else, probably not a surveyor either. I'd probably just pass on the work. Some clients are just not wroth it even at top prices. If I was dumb enough to get involved I'd probably want double the cash up front with a refund of what wasn't used up. If that doesn't make him walk, then I suppose you could call in sick.
Down here in the Indian Territories original tract owners were given "patents" from the United States...basically fee simple though a quit claim deed.
Over the last ten years I've talked with several people that "read on the internet" if they had original patent, they would be exempt from property taxes. (You know they can't put anything on the internet if it isn't true.)
I have a buddy, an old Viet-Nam War Vet "...when you pry my cold, dead fingers..." kinda fella. We discussed this in length and I (free of charge) obtained him a copy of the original patent for the quarter-section where his property lies, and furnished him with a signed, sealed and notorized document (as a licensed land surveyor) that 100% of his property fell within the boundary of that original patent. He was happy as a lark. Never heard another thing from him.
BTW - This same fella argued in traffic court that he couldn't pay a speeding ticket because there was no "legal" tender in circulation anymore, due to Roosevelt's 1935 Suspension of the Gold Standard.
The Judge was one step ahead of him..he "let" him pay his speeding ticket by giving him 40 hours of community service. He picked up trash for week over a lousy hunnerd bucks.
Maybe a helpful analogy:
Suppose a potential client asked for a survey of his 0.25-acre lot, and explained that the sole reason for the survey was to try to divide his lot into tiny 0.01-acre parcels for resale. Further, let's say that these tiny parcels would grossly violate the minimum lot size set by the local zoning laws, and that it's well known that the board of zoning appeals uniformly refuses to consider such ridiculously small lots.
If I couldn't successfully explain the futility of the attempt, I would be compelled to decline the work. It would not be ethical to take money from such a naively misguided client.
~ Doug
What has surprized me is the number of times that some caller and even some clients at the end of the job that believe and will argue that by having a state license I am paid employee of the state and survey property as a service to the public.
[sarcasm]People will say anything to save a buck[/sarcasm]
> ... when it doesn't work the magic he wants.
The word "magic" has been used elsewhere to describe the incantation nature of the legal arguments used by the SovCit believers, and it seems fitting.
The idea that taxes can be avoided by uttering exactly the right words in court is reminiscent of casting spells... meticulous differences like YOUR NAME (all caps) has different legal responsibilities from Your Name (regular caps).
In the real world, courts aren't impressed with these things. Remember the outcome of the CA case regarding the distinction between "record of survey" and "record of the survey"?
~ Doug
A particularly good collection of this nonsense can be found at:
http://freedom-school.com/land_patents-allodial_title.pdf
It drags in everything you can imagine including the Federal Reserve, the National Debt, and the Second Amendment. It didn't mention (at least very prominently) that in implementing their plan they must logically give up police and fire protection, use of paved roads, and all other services paid for by the taxes they want to evade.
At root, all our civilization is based on an agreement to certain rules. These guys want to re-interpret the rules to their advantage without getting an agreement with the rest of society.
> A particularly good collection of this nonsense can be found at:
> http://freedom-school.com/land_patents-allodial_title.pdf
>
> It drags in everything you can imagine including the Federal Reserve, the National Debt, and the Second Amendment. It didn't mention (at least very prominently) that in implementing their plan they must logically give up police and fire protection, use of paved roads, and all other services paid for by the taxes they want to evade.
>
> At root, all our civilization is based on an agreement to certain rules. These guys want to re-interpret the rules to their advantage without getting an agreement with the rest of society.
Thanks for posting the link I forgot in my OP.
> At root, all our civilization is based on an agreement to certain rules. These guys want to re-interpret the rules to their advantage without getting an agreement with the rest of society.
Sounds like our Great National Politicians!
