We Surveyors Need to "Get In Front Of This Technology"?

all good points, and excellent comparison to other technologies.

Very interesting viewpoint. I hope it proves to be true. GIS, can of course, contain exact geodetic coordinates but in my experience, rarely does. It is predominately computer mapping. I suspect that almost all surveyors have had extensive experience in surveying as-builts, construction stake out & the usual plug & chug stuff not a lot of us like to do. I am sort of semi retired. The only reason I am not devoting all my time to hunting & catching fish is those miserable bills! Actually, I like surveying (& eating) but try to limit my surveying to rural boundary retracement & geodetic control. I can only pity those that would rely on a cell phone app. for the survey of their property.

Slight tangent warning:

I used to be what was referred to as an "early adapter" of technology. I enjoyed learning about it, found it relatively easy to use, and could make doing things easier. Even though computers were expensive, many useful programs seemed to be either free or pretty inexpensive (especially for what they did).

As time has moved along and many new technologies have emerged, other things have changed as well. There are some things (like "smart" phones and tablets for example) which don't interest me very much and are often incapable of doing the tasks I wish to perform. Plus, I simply do not have the money to keep up with every last tech thing that's out there. It's moving fast, but sometimes not getting very far much of the time.

Companies that don't (or can't) keep up with tech may well be facing some of the same challenges. Especially in surveying. I have read numerous discussions on this very board about not being able to charge the fees that "we" feel we are worth. So, where does that leave the quest for the latest and greatest gear (which often costs thousands, if not tens of thousands) yet not being able to justify the cost to the client?

Plumb Bill, post: 395699, member: 226 wrote: Think about what happened with GIS. GIS should have been right down our alley. It was a pop fly coming straight for us. The problem is the ball was the size of a watermelon, and we are an ant.

I'm not bad mouthing the surveying profession. I think it's great. What I'm saying is that the GIS market was simply too large for professional surveyors (PS) to wrangle, to OWN. Just look at the pervasiveness of Arc this, Arc that. Every town is using GIS, etc.

GIS is an IT area not surveying. I fail to see how any surveyors should be doing GIS unless you mean some form of data collection.

The advancement in technology is a great thing, taken in moderation. When the profession abandons the principals of retracement for more precise measurements, creating pin farms and discord among neighbors that have lived harmonious for the past 20 years, is when the technology needs to take a back seat. Unfortunately, there are many licensed, professional surveyors that think a firm or individual can't be considered "professional" because they are running gear/software from 5 years ago or longer, yet they disregard their formal & informal education that dictates the pins set by the original surveyor are perfect as set, and that the documentation is in error.

I'm confused about the statement, "This is our opportunity to reinvent ourselves as the more "Professional" service that most of us would rather be". How much more noble or professional can one get than to do a job, regardless of the solution, and know that you performed your duties honestly and to the best of your ability, while safeguarding the public welfare? When I hear that someone wants to redefine or reinvent the profession, I immediately think that they never wanted to be a surveyor in the first place. I pray this isn't the case here.

My apologies to the "expert measurers" that may take offense to this dissertation. If you fall into this categorization, PLEASE refer back to your basic surveying texts and teachings.

My $0.02

Kevin Hines, post: 395775, member: 8489 wrote: The advancement in technology is a great thing, taken in moderation. When the profession abandons the principals of retracement for more precise measurements, creating pin farms and discord among neighbors that have lived harmonious for the past 20 years, is when the technology needs to take a back seat. Unfortunately, there are many licensed, professional surveyors that think a firm or individual can't be considered "professional" because they are running gear/software from 5 years ago or longer, yet they disregard their formal & informal education that dictates the pins set by the original surveyor are perfect as set, and that the documentation is in error.

I'm confused about the statement, "This is our opportunity to reinvent ourselves as the more "Professional" service that most of us would rather be". How much more noble or professional can one get than to do a job, regardless of the solution, and know that you performed your duties honestly and to the best of your ability, while safeguarding the public welfare? When I hear that someone wants to redefine or reinvent the profession, I immediately think that they never wanted to be a surveyor in the first place. I pray this isn't the case here.

My apologies to the "expert measurers" that may take offense to this dissertation. If you fall into this categorization, PLEASE refer back to your basic surveying texts and teachings.

My $0.02

Ever since I started surveying thirty years ago, and on this board and other places, I've heard and seen people complain about PSs that aren't very professional. I see it all too often. I'm talking about not only the licensed guys that show up to association meetings in an old AC/DC tee shirt (more forgivable, I know a couple of these guys that do great boundary work,), but also the guys that will do the $100 drive-bys or other cut-throat practices.

My goodness, you won't even find a plumber that will cut his brethren at the knees to take the job, something PSs really need to wrap their head around.

I love surveying, it's a minority of surveyors I don't care for.

Totalsurv, post: 395772, member: 8202 wrote: GIS is an IT area not surveying. I fail to see how any surveyors should be doing GIS unless you mean some form of data collection.

That is a joke. Right?????? Jp

Kevin Hines, post: 395775, member: 8489 wrote: When the profession abandons the principals of retracement for more precise measurements, creating pin farms and discord among neighbors that have lived harmonious for the past 20 years, is when the technology needs to take a back seat.

My apologies to the "expert measurers" that may take offense to this dissertation. If you fall into this categorization, PLEASE refer back to your basic surveying texts and teachings.

Measurement technology makes for a convenient boogyman, but it's all a false Manichaeism. It's not like when I go out and buy a half second TS50 that the Leica rep comes to my office and takes my second edition of Clark on Surveying and Boundaries out of my bookshelf.

My suspicion is that 99.9% of all pin cushions are created by people who have neither a grasp of boundary law nor an understanding of what it takes to be an expert measurer.

Jp7191, post: 395789, member: 1617 wrote: That is a joke. Right?????? Jp

Go ahead and explain your understanding of what a GIS is. I do have a degree in GIS by the way but you probably know better right.

Jp7191, post: 395789, member: 1617 wrote: That is a joke. Right?????? Jp

[SARCASM]Since when have surveyors dealt with geographic information?[/SARCASM]

Jones, post: 395795, member: 10458 wrote: [SARCASM]Since when have surveyors dealt with geographic information?[/SARCASM]

GIS means Geographic Information System not just Geographic Information.

You seem to be confused between creating Geographic Information (eg a survey) and creating, maintaining and performing spatial analysis within a GIS which are very different.

An unprofessional attitude, shade tree surveying, and low balling just to keep someone else from getting a job is a problem within this profession that takes the efforts of everyone to correct. Yes, the unsavory need to be culled, but that has to be done by the Boards acting on complaints. My only advise would be to get more involved with the professional society and have the like minded in your area crack down on the undesirables. Be careful when discussing the low ball issue as some may get the impression of price fixing instead of value pricing.

I never intended to make technology the boogeyman in my OP. I'm rather fine with technology. I'm mostly addressing the comments that malign surveyors(ing) as a whole for not "capturing" these markets and making them OURS. They're just too big for that to happen.

For instance, as it gets easier and easier to make a pretty terrain model from a UAV more and more firms will be OK with the lesser accuracy. Also, at what point will be equal to a survey product? Just look at the arc of advancement of the past five years!

We are licensed to protect the public. We won't need to protect the public from certain things much longer.

wrote: some may get the impression of price fixing instead of value pricing.

It's definitely a touchy subject, but lawyers, etc. sure seemed to get a handle on it. I personally think most of the problem is just lack of accounting knowledge. If you look at what it takes to become a licensed surveyor we should be six figures minimum. I think that's the other problem, too many are OK with a salary equal to what someone could make with a couple years management experience at Wal-Mart.

I remember something someone once said on that old/other forum: There's a difference between owning a business and owning your job.

Totalsurv, post: 395801, member: 8202 wrote: GIS means Geographic Information System not just Geographic Information.

You seem to be confused between creating Geographic Information (eg a survey) and creating, maintaining and performing spatial analysis within a GIS which are very different.

Nope not confused the least bit. The difference is not that great. We both collect data from a variety of sources, and display our findings in graphical way. A SYSTEM only implies that it is continually updated and usually incompasses a much larger area.

Jones, post: 395814, member: 10458 wrote: Nope not confused the least bit. The difference is not that great. We both collect data from a variety of sources, and display our findings in graphical way. A SYSTEM only implies that it is continually updated and usually incompasses a much larger area.

That is just not a correct representation of what a GIS is.

gschrock, post: 395817, member: 556 wrote: There is no reason why surveyors could not foster the reputation of being the go-to experts in UAS based geospatial data collection for use-cases where the stakes are high.

When discussing emerging technologies, too much emphasis is placed by surveyors on the operation of the technology itself rather than what avenues are opened by the technology being put into use. These days any monkey can be trained to collect geo-referenced data by the terabyte, managing all that data, and selling to a client what that managed data can do for them, however, takes a primate of a higher level.

‰ÛÏWe are moving slowly into an era where Big Data is the starting point, not the end.‰Û
-Pearl Zhu

Totalsurv, post: 395793, member: 8202 wrote: Go ahead and explain your understanding of what a GIS is. I do have a degree in GIS by the way but you probably know better right.

Sorry! My degree is business administration. Other than the love of land surveying I have no standing to debate with you. Good day, Jp

I worked for 25 years at a company that was a very early player in the GIS market we were an ArcInfo dealer and we also had a huge regional photogrammetry business. I was the sole PLS at the company and I can tell you the intricacies of GIS is way beyond the abilities of most surveyors to incorporate into their practice. The few survey/engineering companies I knew that did get involved did not use their surveyors they hired GIS professionals and several programmers. GIS is highly database programming intensive... or at least was a few years back.

I think the same is pretty much true of photogrammetry. It is not as easy as getting into GPS for example. You can not just buy the equipment and software and start a photogrammetry practice... you need people that know what the heck they are doing... like an ASP Certified Photogrammetrist. Yes there actually is such a profession.

Totalsurv should probably be listened to if you really want to know the score on this GIS thing.