Many States have an office of performance evaluation or something like it. Most have an AG. If reps from the Professional Society csn't get the Board to step up, move up the chain. No movement find a friend in the Legslsture and take away thier toys. If it isnt worth that effort the Profession is dead in that State anyway.
I will say that the Office of Professional Discipline is trying to do something at least. Whereas the state and regional associations have not done much at all if anything. I have also contacted NSPS about this and notified them on their online forum of this practice and have heard not a single word or comment from them. If anyone were to step in on this I thought NSPS would have at least addressed the issue.
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kabonski, post: 417990, member: 1518 wrote: I will say that the Office of Professional Discipline is trying to do something at least. Whereas the state and regional associations have not done much at all if anything. I have also contacted NSPS about this and notified them on their online forum of this practice and have heard not a single word or comment from them. If anyone were to step in on this I thought NSPS would have at least addressed the issue.
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Did you contact Patti Brooks, I believe she is still the New York Director to NSPS. Doesn't the Department of Education have some say over licensed individuals in New York?
Stephen Gould, post: 417991, member: 12560 wrote: Did you contact Patti Brooks, I believe she is still the New York Director to NSPS. Doesn't the Department of Education have some say over licensed individuals in New York?
Yes she is aware of this. I also posted on the NYSAPLS online forum as well and have had no responses. NYSAPLS put me in contact, via Facebook, with a gentleman who was supposed to look into this but I have had no contact with him since. I also sent him a list of about 40 other foresters who offer the same services. This forum seems to be the only one any surveyors ever read or post on! At least I know I'm not alone in this.
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kabonski, post: 417992, member: 1518 wrote: Yes she is aware of this. I also posted on the NYSAPLS online forum as well and have had no responses. NYSAPLS put me in contact, via Facebook, with a gentleman who was supposed to look into this but I have had no contact with him since. I also sent him a list of about 40 other foresters who offer the same services. This forum seems to be the only one any surveyors ever read or post on! At least I know I'm not alone in this.
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Kabonski,
Good on you for bird dogging it. I can tell you from experience the process will be slow. Keep hammering and dont get discouraged. Ready yourself for the full count of rounds moving forward and press on. Sooner or later your efforts will fall on the right ears.
Thanks, Tom
For what it's worth, I filed the FIRST PROPERLY MADE complaint, in the state of Arkansas, against another surveyor.
This eventually led to this other surveyor handing in his license.
I documented the complaint. Maybe some 50 pages. (make sure you keep copies of all you do)
I wrote a letter with it. I had the letter notarized.
I did it all in my dad's name, as he had a PLS at the time, and I did not.
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Suggestion:
Make the BOR legally liable for these forresters.
Blow it up. Notarized letters. Newspaper articles.
Get your hands dirty. Make a case, for both an amateur atty, in 1st yr law school, and public outcry. If you don't care enough to "load the shotgun", then how do you expect them to point it, and bark "cease and desist"?
Do it.
I did.
It's helped.
N
For what it's worth, this is what can happen. NPI, an Oklahoma based company partnered with NANA, a native corporation to harvest timber to export to Asia as wood chips. A good friend's son, just out of high school worked for them marking timber harvest boundaries using a recreational grade GPS. No licensed surveyor involved. They cleared the wrong parcel.
http://www.alaskajournal.com/community/2007-03-04/logging-wrong-lot-spurs-anger-questions-over-fault#.WMQ7CDTpqc0
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
I had a landscape contractor contact me the other day for boundary information. He had a contract to remark some previously surveyed boundaries and set wire flags at the location of any missing corners with the monument number Wootten on them with a permanent marker. This is down in [USER=291]@Nate The Surveyor[/USER] back yard. I think the contract was terminated but I am not sure. I also found a case where the same thing was going on at a lake in Missouri. [USER=34]@Dan B. Robison[/USER] has more information on this.
[USER=10727]@Bushwhacker[/USER], I would like to get more information about the Arkansas Board getting involved in these issues.
As far as NSPS getting involved, they would only step in if their is a "Brooks Bill" violation on a federal contract, unless the state society asked the to assist. If it is a Brooks Qualifications Based Selection problem, they can probably get it fixed fast, less than a day.
Just surveyed 4 USACE boundary encroachments. 2 were minor. But 2 were significant. One of those was a blatant disregard for the federal property line. The other was a case of hired "boundary maintenance contractors" marking and painting the boundary incorrectly for years. Then another inexperienced surveyor followed that painted line and set new corners, even with the original corners still in the ground. (A whole other story) The point is, these types of things are like compounding errors in measurement perpetuated by the unlicensed. They are putting the public at risk and wasting tax money on unnecessary surveys and court actions to correct their mistakes.
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Do a google search on the "Quiet Title Act". That could have an effect on those mistakenly marked line becoming the boundary, if it favors the private land owner.
[USER=11897]@BushAxe[/USER] was your work for the Corps submitted to a Land Surveyor with the corps? If so is the Land Surveyor Licensed in the state where the survey was performed? Feds arn't required to be licensed in a specific state but I have always thought it showed respect for the profession to be licensed where you practice.
Most of the COE lake boundaries I've followed are marked by 4x4 concrete monuments with brass disk with identity numbers.
My understanding is that prior to the 1970s they were marked by anyone that applied for a contract and met their conditions, surveyor or non surveyor.
The COE will claim to the location of these monuments over any original monument in place and extend their right of taking and refuse any proof otherwise.
0.02
kabonski, post: 417992, member: 1518 wrote: Yes she is aware of this. I also posted on the NYSAPLS online forum as well and have had no responses. NYSAPLS put me in contact, via Facebook, with a gentleman who was supposed to look into this but I have had no contact with him since. I also sent him a list of about 40 other foresters who offer the same services. This forum seems to be the only one any surveyors ever read or post on! At least I know I'm not alone in this.
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Please send me that list. And if you have any documents showing where this practice caused a dispute of any sort it would be helpful. Practicing or offering to practice without a license is a felony in NY. It's a crime and no need for them to have a license in order to discipline them. The ad you posted is carefully crafted to try and get around the law, but I don't think it quite does it. If so, it may be we need a new law or regulation to address the issue.
kabonski, post: 417828, member: 1518 wrote: From what I understand OPD's next step is to bring it to the AG. But from what I hear the AG pushes cases like this aside or doesn't put much weight on them because they spend the majority of the time looking at physician malpractice and a few other profession's misconduct issues and are overloaded with those cases. It's a frustrating process but I guess it just takes time.
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It would only go to the AG for the State's legal opinion on whether the activities require a license under the State licensing statute. It must be unclear on at least one of the activities.
Steve Corley, post: 418148, member: 23 wrote: I had a landscape contractor contact me the other day for boundary information. He had a contract to remark some previously surveyed boundaries and set wire flags at the location of any missing corners with the monument number Wootten on them with a permanent marker. This is down in [USER=291]@Nate The Surveyor[/USER] back yard. I think the contract was terminated but I am not sure. I also found a case where the same thing was going on at a lake in Missouri. [USER=34]@Dan B. Robison[/USER] has more information on this.
[USER=10727]@Bushwhacker[/USER], I would like to get more information about the Arkansas Board getting involved in these issues.
As far as NSPS getting involved, they would only step in if their is a "Brooks Bill" violation on a federal contract, unless the state society asked the to assist. If it is a Brooks Qualifications Based Selection problem, they can probably get it fixed fast, less than a day.
We had a non-licensed guy up around Van Buren, Arkansas at the time marking boundaries, marking line for timber sales and fence building and such. Mr. Billy Cline was the board secretary at the time and worked with the local Prosecuting Attorney to get him charged
Our Board goes after at least some of them. The top of page 10 lists the actions against unlicensed practitioners during the reporting period. Hopefully Ric Moore will chime in to add more about this topic.
http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/pubs/bulletin.latest.pdf
Bushwhacker, post: 418325, member: 10727 wrote: Mr. Billy Cline was the board secretary at the time and worked with the local Prosecuting Attorney to get him charged
Billy Cline? Yer showin' yer age Bushwhacker! [USER=23]@Steve Corley[/USER]
DDSM
Dan B. Robison, post: 418352, member: 34 wrote: Billy Cline? Yer showin' yer age Bushwhacker! [USER=23]@Steve Corley[/USER]
DDSM
I am the 1st student to graduate from the U.A.L.R. surveying program.
kabonski, post: 417775, member: 1518 wrote: Many foresters in my area (NY) advertise that they perform Boundary Line Maintenance and Boundary Line Locations. This includes marking the boundary line for timber trespass so that a land owner can tell where their property line is. You can find these ads on Craigslist and many forestry publications and websites. I've attached an example of one ad. This company even advertises that they have experience in subdividing land!
In my opinion and the opinion of OPD (Office Of Professional Discipline) that this is Surveying without a license. The problem is that almost all foresters do this and since they do not hold a professional license, OPD can't really do anything to them so the practice continues.
Does anyone have any opinions on this or any similar stories in other states where this may have been addressed?
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Does New York have an Ethics Board? Consider filing a complaint there as well as the licensing board. Continue to pursue this until you are satisfied it has received the attention from the State it deserves.
I had a similar situation with a NY Forestry business sending letters to property owners in the northern tier of PA, advertising the same services. I called them and asked them to describe the services they offered and them proceeded to inquire who the licensed surveyor was that they had on staff. I tried to be very professional and took the time to identify myself as a surveyor, not looking for more work but concerned that they were unknowingly offering survey services without a license. The business owner became very defensive and borderline aggressive over the phone at which time I ended the call, documented the conversation and filed a complaint with the PA registration board.
Since then I have seen several similar adds on Craigslist. In order to protect the general public (its in the registration law as part of my responsibilities) I have no qualms reporting the situation to either the state registration board, flagging the posting as a SCAM or both. If we do not step up and take action to protect our profession, we will have nobody to blame for its demise.
I ran into this issue in Washington doing timberline's. Guys going out with a string box and compass marking section lines and putting section corners in the wrong spot. They'd hire guys for 10 bucks an hour to do this. Supposedly they could do it because they weren't filing a R.O.S. Nothing was filed so nothing was ever done. Apparently you can go out paint and blaze trees and say yup that there is your property line. My coworker beat the piss out of one them for yanking out out section corners and our control.