Leaving aside the issue that on-line courses are much cheaper, and easier to manage, the State Conference experience should not be looked upon as only an inconvenience and a useless obligation.
First off, most states schedule their conferences at times which are traditionally the least busy for surveyors. As an example, the members of the NY State Association are assembling tomorrow in Rochester NY for a three day conference that offers nearly 40 courses, roughly one third of which are being presented by Association members themselves. Judging from past experience, I'd say that probably half the attendees wouldn't be working a full week this week if they stayed home, as this is the slow season in New York. A similar situation is occurring in two weeks in New Jersey.
Secondly, the State Conference is a venue to get together with fellow professionals, face to face. (The enthusiasm for this can be seen in the lead post, where many posters here are going to attend not only the Oregon Conference, but the Beerlegger Wendell and Angel are hosting as well.) In many states, especially non-PLSS, the practice of surveying varies from city to suburbs to rural areas, and this is a way where practitioners from all areas can "compare notes" and/or argue about methodologies and legalism.
Once one decides to practice in a state where CEU's are mandatory, that cost should be built into your overhead, so the "loss" of $8000.00 is a bogus argument. This is plain business sense.
While there are admittedly some poorly conceived courses, and there is a large amount of repetition over the course of several years, it is a poor student who can't pick and choose the proper courses and then attend with an aim to get something out of them. The learning process for adults and professionals is not supposed to be "one-way", but rather a give and take experience. I have been at seminars where a quiet and sleepy topic has been enlivened by the participation of vocal members who have questions or may have opinions diverging from those of the presenters.
We can lobby to change the CEU rules if we want, but while they are in place, it's our professional duty, as outlined by our State BORs to make the best of them.
SC
I agree about Continuing Education, It is the "mandatory" part i.e., the required courses that I take issue with.
As a Professional, I know what education I need to satisfy my clients requirements.
Sorry, but I can't believe what I'm reading.
Never ask for higher fees, for anything.
This discussion sort of wanders all over the place mainly because each State has its own view on interpretation as to what best serves the profession. Those of us who work only in one State have a much narrower view of things than those who are licensed in multiple States. There is easily a much different view of things based on the ease of access to the programs. If one operates in a State where you must attend the State Association meeting every year and it is a 400 mile round trip, his experience is much different than that of someone in a State accepting all sorts of educational programs of which there may an opportunity every week of the year somewhere not far from home. And, any discussion of dollars is uneven based on the economics of the community in which you live. $8000 is a heck of a price for someone living in one of the nicest houses in town that was purchased for $24,000, not $480,000.
Those who have become licensed in the past ten to twenty years may have experienced mandatory continuing education from the very beginning so see it as being a normal practice. We all have followed surveyors from earlier times who did excellent work, in our opinion, yet they had no such requirement put upon them for mandatory continuing education. How could they have possibly done such solid work without being coerced into formal and documented continuing education courses? And, there are probably more terrible surveyors licensed today than there were in those earlier times, yet they somehow have certificates of completion to prove they paid for specific courses, whether or not they actually attended them or did so while awake or did so while playing games on their cell phone.
The number one and two goals behind mandatory continuing education are to put more money in the bank account of the State Association and to coerce licensees to join the Association through ridiculously lower fees than those charged to non-members so as to appear to be a larger organization when approaching the State Legislature to influence legislation. The clique actually controlling the Association will not wander very far from those two goals from year to year.
The justification for "Mandatory" CEU is to get people to practice the Profession in a Professional manner.
Raising the fee, to support enforcement, and using the money to investigate those that don't practice the Profession in a Professional manner accomplishes the same goal with LESS money.
> As I stated before I get plenty of CEUs on a yearly basis. I question having to take the same courses repeatedly as "mandatory" classes on state law.
>
> And, to UT Veyor. I have taught some of these "mandatory" classes on state law at the state conference.
Then obviously you're not looking for ideas or other views on the subject but simply venting and lamenting a perceived plight on the profession. My apologies sir. However, next time, typing RANT in the subject line would help others to avoid in the future, what would appear to be a genuine question on the subject.
As a professional when I do a survey I am doing it for equal parts my client, the state, and the adjoining land owners aka the public. I owe it the public and my clients to have the CE. I have seem many varies different topics for CE and if I took a different class each year it would take 7-10 years before I had to repeat a class. Laws change, rules change, technology change, CE are a great way to keep up with the changes.
If you lost 3 days of billing to get your CE, well there are about 52 Saturdays in a year you could make up those 3 days, or try online CEs next time you have field work and it is raining. I don't see how raising the renewal fee would help, maybe for the retired survey that wants to stay active on their license.
I am about to take 8 hours of CEs for $300.00 I also enjoy going to the classes, I get to see my Survey friends spread across the state.
Do you have a better solution for CE then to just raise the renewal fees? What required classes do you have to take? In my state we need 12 hours, they want 3 of those hours to be on board rules or ethics, the other 9 is any board approved class, which is a long list.
"The number one and two goals behind mandatory continuing education are to put more money in the bank account of the State Association and to coerce licensees to join the Association through ridiculously lower fees than those charged to non-members so as to appear to be a larger organization when approaching the State Legislature to influence legislation. The clique actually controlling the Association will not wander very far from those two goals from year to year."
holy cow, that is a bulls-eye.
So you'd rather that all of us spend our money on enforcement than on our own education?
Continuing Education Was Created To Educate The Uneducated
With more and more surveyors having a surveying degree it is an Absolute Insult to require them to spend money on Survey Drivel.[n]
Paul in PA
:good: :good:
Continuing Education: What is the Intent?
If anyone thinks that the goal of Mandatory Continuing Education; is to line the insides of the State Societies Bank Accounts, then they better think again. The money that goes into these accounts is for the betterment of the surveying community; if it's not, then the wrong people are running the show.
The goal of Mandatory Continuing Education is to protect the public. At least that's what I was sworn to do when I recieved my State's License. Protecting the public, means to me; that I must provide the best professional service I can; with the highest quality of care; using the latest, most efficient technology that is available to me.
I read a lot of "us and them" in the posts to this thread; aren't we in this together? If you have people that are only in it for "them" and they are running things, then they have to go. This could go political real fast, so I will leave it with: there is a delicate balance between "us and them". If we can pull those, on the extreme fringes, closer to the center; then we have done our job.
I don't like the "mandatory" part any better than Mr, Davidson. I feel that people like him and I are going to improve ourselves, no matter what anyone else tries to impose on us and those that are just in this to make money, and don't care, will find a way to cheat the system.
Therein lies the crux of the situation: how do we, as a society, make this a better community, in which we live? We get involved; we talk to those that are on the extreme finges and we find out what their issuses are. We educate ourselves with their concerns and them with ours, it's called networking.
If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem. Ask not what your society can do for you, ask what you can do for your society.
I hope everyone has a great day, I know I'm going to.
Doug
Who on this board can honestly say that they are 100% confident in ALL of their abilities, degree or no degree? Anyone? I'm certainly not.
Here in MA, if I'm not mistaken, continuing ed is "encouraged", not mandatory. I think a few years ago, MALSCE put out a questionnaire as to what seminar topics people wanted to see. I haven't seen this again in the last few years, but was thankful when it did happen. Maybe if more BORs went that route, we could make the most of the courses that are offered.
I'd like to see some courses on GNSS, least squares, and map projections, to name a few. If you're frustrated with the "same old" courses that are being offered, maybe write the BOR.
-V
Here in MA.... Well we do have a Professional Development Committee that host regular seminars several times a year. We do send out a questionnaire after each seminar and one of the questions is "What subjects would you like to see covered?"
I am not in favor of mandatory continuing education requirements. It's part of being a Professional to keep up with your profession, give back, and continue to keep current. How can you legislate Professionalism?
Dtp
Continuing Education Was Created To Educate The Uneducated
A degree is not the end of education. As an old colleague once said, "Educators should facilitate learning." One of our program goals was to inculcate an appreciation for the need to continue learning.
Continuing education should be a part of every profession. Unfortunately, in implementation it frequently leaves a lot to be desired.
Having worked for an organization that valued training, I was able to supplement my seventies-vintage education with up-to-date knowledge. Once you receive your degree you are not done; much less after you get your license.
Forcing attendance at professional development seminars is akin to forcing undergraduate students to sit through required courses they think irrelevant. Some of my old students were surprised how relevant geodesy was to their surveying work.
Cheers,
DMM
Completely agree with the Divine Bovine on this one.
I had. There are too many jack legs out there that have absolutely no concept of how to survey. They need the book thrown at them.
Mandatory Continuing Education...Suggestions?
My first inclination after reading this post was to let loose with rant against the racket of continued education and the bs involved, but after a moment of reflection, rather than focus on the negative and since it is a requirement and my ranting likely won't change that, at risk of a hijack, would anyone care to suggest some of their favorite on line/alternate CE courses?
Some of subjects I would be interested in expanding my knowledge on and getting credit for are
*Elevation certificates/ vertical datums
*Geodesy
*ROW issues/research
*Boundary Law
*Running a surveying business
*Remote Sensing
*GIS
I do a fair amount of reading on various subjects and ask as many questions of my peers as I feel comfortable, but I don't get any credit for just doing my job and trying to stay competent.
Just a casual footnote but I think Wendell might be missing out on an opportunity to compile some CE courses with the assistance of the vast pool of knowledge on here. Exhibit 'A' being the fabulous and informative post the other day by NDrummond on pilot/balloon weather theodolites.
Cheers! Now to make a buck. ~Willy out.
Just because I'm paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get me.
Continuing Education: What is the Intent?
> If anyone thinks that the goal of Mandatory Continuing Education; is to line the insides of the State Societies Bank Accounts, then they better think again. The money that goes into these accounts is for the betterment of the surveying community; if it's not, then the wrong people are running the show.
I know for a fact there is at least one state organization that thinks like that.
> The goal of Mandatory Continuing Education is to protect the public. At least that's what I was sworn to do when I recieved my State's License. Protecting the public, means to me; that I must provide the best professional service I can; with the highest quality of care; using the latest, most efficient technology that is available to me.
If you have to be cajoled and threatened by having your license suspended or revoked in order to further your professional education, you aren't much of a professional after all.
> I read a lot of "us and them" in the posts to this thread; aren't we in this together? If you have people that are only in it for "them" and they are running things, then they have to go. This could go political real fast, so I will leave it with: there is a delicate balance between "us and them". If we can pull those, on the extreme fringes, closer to the center; then we have done our job.
We're professional practitioners, not members of a commune.
I used to be in favor of mandatory continuing education, however, the State of Florida has cured me of that. If were aren't to be trusted with selecting our own courses to further our education, then we certainly don't need to be trusted to stake out property lines.
> The number one and two goals behind mandatory continuing education are to put more money in the bank account of the State Association and to coerce licensees to join the Association through ridiculously lower fees than those charged to non-members so as to appear to be a larger organization when approaching the State Legislature to influence legislation. The clique actually controlling the Association will not wander very far from those two goals from year to year.
Yes, HC, you are correct. However, if your state society is actually influencing legislation your state is already two steps ahead of most states, most don't even try let alone accomplish much.
Why is the main goal of mandatory CE to bolster the membership of state societies, especially in states where the societies are mostly impotent in influencing legislation and other rules we (and the public) must follow? What else can they do besides put on conventions to provide the mandatory CE classes? I think therein lies both the problem and the solution.