'Decamp immediately': Kate Brown steps up rhetoric on Oregon militants. Oregon governor recently pressuring for government action and got just that. One dead rancher. Not looking good for the rural vote, not that it matters with Portlandia in your vote count.
Right issue, wrong place and time.
bridger
I just wanted to step in and say that this thread may not be here much longer -- I'm starting to see signs of deterioration and it was already a lead contender for deletion a long time ago. I've surprised myself that I've let it go this long....
Also, it has been moved to the General Chit-Chat forum.
Wendell, post: 355148, member: 1 wrote: I just wanted to step in and say that this thread may not be here much longer -- I'm starting to see signs of deterioration and it was already a lead contender for deletion a long time ago. I've surprised myself that I've let it go this long....
Also, it has been moved to the General Chit-Chat forum.
It's been valuable in getting the perspective of others here. Thank you for allowing it to run it's course thus far Wendell.
Williwaw, post: 352369, member: 7066 wrote: Looks like they done pissed off the wrong crowd. :-@
Thanks. I'm sharing that one on facebook.
Wendell, post: 355148, member: 1 wrote: I just wanted to step in and say that this thread may not be here much longer -- I'm starting to see signs of deterioration and it was already a lead contender for deletion a long time ago. I've surprised myself that I've let it go this long....
Also, it has been moved to the General Chit-Chat forum.
W ~ I will completely support your decision, either way. Thank you for your tolerance to date. Can we at least claim to have set some sort of good behavior record before this goes away, you know, for posterity's sake?
For Robert Hill:
Minorities are minorities. Ranchers are most definitely a minority in the US today no matter what race, creed, religion or political view point. They were there long before the meddling urbanites.
At over 10k views it definitely has to rank as a top topic.
Thanks Wendell for restraint. Also to the others who attempted to keep it civil.
I've found this thread rather informative. I've followed along as an ignorant outsider from the East Coast. Thanks to all that have reported, contributed different points of view and have been able to add local perspectives. I, for the most part, feel most have been honest, civil and open.
Again, I'm ignorant to the BLM other than what was required for licensing. I don't deal with it in the colonial states and have learned quite a bit throughout this thread.
joabmc:
I don't know diddly about fishing boats and subway systems and a long list of other things that I do not encounter in my day to day world. I probably should not comment too loudly on topics that are focused on problems involving such things. It is interesting, as you say, to follow what impacts other surveyors in their day to day world. This thread lasted more than a hour or two, which surprised me at that time. It has generally been civil discourse between adults. That is why it has survived, I suppose. It hasn't been changed into a Republican versus Democrat or Baptist versus Lutheran type of discussion.
So the charges are "conspiracy to impede officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through use of force, intimidation, or threats."
Does anybody know the max. penalty for that crime? I bet it's 5 years in Federal prison...
EDIT:
Per LII, "If two or more persons in any State, Territory, Possession, or District conspire to prevent, by force, intimidation, or threat, any person from accepting or holding any office, trust, or place of confidence under the United States, or from discharging any duties thereof, or to induce by like means any officer of the United States to leave the place, where his duties as an officer are required to be performed, or to injure him in his person or property on account of his lawful discharge of the duties of his office, or while engaged in the lawful discharge thereof, or to injure his property so as to molest, interrupt, hinder, or impede him in the discharge of his official duties, each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both.
(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 701; Pub. L. 107ÛÒ273, div. B, title IV, å¤Ûø4002(d)(1)(D), Nov. 2, 2002, 116 Stat. 1809.)"
Holy Cow, post: 355158, member: 50 wrote: For Robert Hill:
Minorities are minorities. Ranchers are most definitely a minority in the US today no matter what race, creed, religion or political view point. They were there long before the meddling urbanites.
What does Al Sharpton, Black Lives Matter....that you interjected have to do with discourse. Explain that Mr. Cook instead of preaching your urban bs to me.
In recent months a number of different words have been used as the first of three in "******* lives matter" on placards evident on nightly news reports. It is not really a black or white or green or purple thing. All lives matter. Hence, using the word 'rancher' is no different from any other such label that is being used.
As for Mr. Sharpton, he simply is one example of the kind of person that magically arrives on scene at any event that is hot on the nightly news reports.
I haven't seen photos of all of the protesters and all of the anti-protesters involved at the Refuge site. To my knowledge this is not a racially-based fight. However, tactics that have been used in issues where race has been labeled a factor are being used in this fight as well.
This has been a debate involving landowners and non-landowners.
I am wondering if there are arrest warrants out for the remainder of the folks at the refuge?
It sounded like the situation has quickly turned into an actual "armed stand-off".
The FBI will likely escalate the situation in order to prevent the remaining people from establishing whatever offence/defense they are capable of.
Apparently the penalties those presently under arrest are facing are fairly lightweight, akin to the imprisonment and fines the Hammonds are serving for their arson convictions:
Title 18, United States Code, Section 372 - If two or more persons in any State [. . .] each of such persons shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six years, or both. AMENDMENTS 2002 - Pub. L. 107-273 substituted "2002 - Pub. L. 107-273 substituted "under this title" for "not
more than $5,000".
Interesting the "two or more persons" phrase; the conspiracy angle no doubt. And this Statute was initially codified in 1861, 155 years ago. Weak sauce concerning charges if you ask me, but I've come up empty concerning more serious charges. Trespassing, obviously, but Federal trespass statutes are tied into the US Federal Sentencing Guidelines: assuming a base offense level of 4 points (trespassing not on a secure government facility, military bases, for example) plus two points for firearms possession while trespassing, no points for prior convictions, is a Zone A penalty of 6 months. Not enough sauce from the Fed's standpoint, I'm sure.
I'm no fan of the Bundy gang, but my antennas are itching concerning how this death came down. The Feds could have arrested the leaders one by one as they went to Burns for "meetings", groceries, by all accounts unarmed. Agreed when they made longer trips to Utah, John Day, etc. they were undoubtedly packing heat in their vehicles. It appears it took the Feds a month to set up their infrastructure, establish collaboration with local authorities, gather Intel as to when the top three leaders and others would be isolated on a remote highway in a caravan, set up a control and overwhelming force presence for the arrest process. No press on site for such an operation, strange, in that in the Iraqi war press was imbedded in similar operations.
But I am confused about the actual takedown. Of course the government is in the "ongoing legal process" phase where no particulars are released. But two people who were actually there who were not charged and have (as is their right) spoken out and said the following:
- None of the caravan's occupants reached for or touched a firearm, of which there were plenty in the vehicles.
- All occupants who were arrested did so compliantly, with hands out the window and were on the ground immediately upon exit.
- No shots were fired by the occupants.
- Two vehicles were involved and after initial contact the following vehicle surrendered without incident but the lead vehicle took off and was roadblocked a mile or so later.
- That vehicle was disabled in a snowbank and was apparently hit with dozens of rounds of rifle fire, injuring one occupant who allegedly had hands out the window and was hit in the shoulder. Others in the vehicle were on the floorboards and uninjured.
- Finicum, the driver, exited the vehicle, hands up with no weapons and immediately approached the officers allegedly saying "shoot me". He suffered several rifle hits and died immediately.
Now, the eyewitness accounts of crazy people, I can discount. But, such overwhelming force for what is an apparently a 6 month jail crime seems inappropriate. Sadly, the remaining 10-15 occupiers of the refuge are digging foxholes on their best high ground; because of the topography they're in a losing situation and will be easily neutralized by massive Federal forces. Read about the Modoc Wars; it ended badly because of topography. You're next to a giant lake, there's no escape route.
I bet this will be over in a few weeks.
Mike, how did you come up with the federal sentencing points structure? Can you provide a link?
Could they consider each time they returned to the refuge buildings as separate violations?
Interesting how social media was central to the complaint.
PORTLAND, Ore. (KOIN) ÛÓ A Pilot Rock resident on his way to California was a witness to the shootout on Highway 395 between the FBI, Oregon State Police and members of the Malheur militia, he told KOIN 6 News. Raymond Doherty said when he first arrived at the scene north of Burns around 4:40 p.m. ÛÏthere was a shootout going on. So we kind of watched it, videoed it.Û
"Though there was ÛÏa lot of shooting going on,Û Doherty said he didnÛªt see anybody get shot.
ÛÏI saw them shooting at each other.Û
http://koin.com/2016/01/27/witness-lot-of-shooting-during-militia-arrest/
imaudigger, post: 355193, member: 7286 wrote: Mike, how did you come up with the federal sentencing points structure? Can you provide a link?
Could they consider each time they returned to the refuge buildings as separate violations?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Federal_Sentencing_Guidelines
According to news reports, two of the militants admitted to a third that Finicum exited his vehicle with a firearm and charged officers after becoming stuck in a snowbank. Finicum was previously quoted many times that he "would not be put in a concrete box".
Reports that Ammon Bundy called his wife from the back of a police cor that Finicum had his hands up do not seem credible. Why would LE let him call anyone at that time?
I may have the opportunity this summer to help Fish & Wildlife recover PLSS monuments destroyed by Ice a couple of years ago. They're asking for volunteers.
Unfortunately the only change that will happen as a result of this entire fiasco, is that we will have to pay for security upgrades on all of the refuge buildings now. Bullet proof glass, metal detectors and security guard at the door.
They will hand the hunters their stamps through a little slot like the AM PM gas stations in the cities.
The plan to withdraw 10 million acres of public lands from the public domain will continue.
