Lucky you!
I could never do that. And to be honest, I don't think I would want to do that.
I used to leave the house around 6am. As far as I am concerned, driving to work is an acceptable time to ring when you are a project surveyor who is responsible for handling your own clients. You know....team player and all that stuff.
But 4am was just too much.
@murphy this is a very good key approach.
@vasurvey3004 it has and continues to be a long term life lesson for me. ?ÿ
We are in the business of managing expectations. ?ÿIf I think it will take 1 dollar and 1 month to complete a project. ?ÿ
These days I ??try? to under-promise estimated deadlines by telling the potential client in my proposal that the anticipated estimated timeframe will be 3-4 months. ?ÿ
Then, when it comes to dollars, I try to judge the value to this particular client. ?ÿI try to ask, ??why do you think you need this survey?? ?ÿThen, maybe the estimate will be 4-10 dollars. ?ÿ
Then, I do not plug it into the workload list until I have a signed contract and a 50% non-refundable retainer fee.
Then I read posts from folks like Murphy and try to remember to be grateful for this workload and try to not be stressed about it.
Lots of ??trys? in this sermon today.
Otter out (for now).
aka Thor (Mighty god of thunder)
What exactly is the point of bringing on these extra guys??ÿ Can you not make sufficient money by yourself?
It's your modesty. People are desperate to get it done. Time is often more important than money. The cost of the survey is not the largest cost of any project.
I agree that the best time to increase fees is when the demand is high.
@bstrand I guess that depends on your defintion of sufficient money??ÿ I mean just to net 100k a year you have to bill about $250k gross. That pays for a helper/I man,?ÿ health insurance, fuel, equipment, truck, surveying supplies, computer, software, accountant, personal property taxes, income taxes, with holding taxes, general liability insurance, professional liability insurance, workmans comp insurance, auto insurance, and every other Nickel and dime expense that comes with the business.
In regards to hiring a chief, no I don't necessarily have to have one. And can do it on my own with my I man.?ÿ But that doesn't serve my clients interest very well since I can no longer put in 16 hour days every day to do the field work and drafting and billing and payroll and answer emails and bid jobs and write those bills I previously mentioned and spend any time with my wife, kids, grandkids, family and still not get the jobs complete on time.
So yes I need a chief.?ÿ But Damn aren't there anymore Chiefs out there that have a clue.?ÿ Especially those with 10 years surveying experience and asking for $25/HR.?ÿ
Regarding my client base.?ÿ I work for 4 engineers, 1 developer and 1 construction company mainly.?ÿ A few attorneys, the private referrals and every other client I have worked for the past 15 years.
I don't believe in putting all my eggs in one basket.?ÿ My ex business partner did that, he got a big job that was good the past 10 years, he ran off all his other small clients to service the big client.?ÿ Well the big client job is winding down and he's been scrambling.
When the recession hit, my design engineers didn't have much, construction was slow, but my tower engineers were rocking and rolling and that kept me fed and us in business. So I'm a firm believer in doing what is necessary to keep my diversified client base happy.?ÿ And that's really what it's about for me.?ÿ?ÿ
However in today's market and my current age im finding more difficult to do that without help.?ÿ But it seems that my "new help" isn't up to the task. And I'm still working 16 hour days.?ÿ And taking my wife on hour drives on the weekends so I can make sense of the field work my new chief did.?ÿ Then turning chicken shit into chicken salad.
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Sorry for the rant had a lot to get off my chest. Thanks for y'alls advice and support.
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@vasurvey3004 this is a well written detail of true struggles where the rubber hits the road for you. ?ÿI feel your pain. ?ÿWe are not getting any younger. ?ÿWe have to learn to manage expectations. ?ÿOurs and others.
@bstrand I guess that depends on your defintion of sufficient money??ÿ
What I was getting at is that we work to live, right??ÿ You could be a 1-man shop working 8-10 hour days servicing a smaller client list if you wanted to??ÿ Why not do that??ÿ I'm guessing the answer is something money related.
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Also, a couple statistics:
The average wage in 2019 in the US was $51,916.27
Full-time working men in 2019 had median earnings of $57,456
https://policyadvice.net/insurance/insights/average-american-income/
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You mention paying your new guy $25/hour ($50,000/year) so assuming the data in the link is ballpark accurate-- right out of the gate you're paying a below average wage.?ÿ Cost of living varies from one region to another of course, but at the same time I think it's helpful to be aware of what folks are making on a broader scale.
Anyway, I was making almost that much money when I was straight out of school in 2017 as a green crew chief and I was able to live fairly comfortably on that with no wife or kids.?ÿ I think if I was making that amount of money after 10 years of experience I better either be 1.) bad at it, or 2.) mad about it.
Anyway, have you thought about offering $30/hour and seeing what kind of help you might get?
@micheal-daubyn-2
"...And don't you dare sleep with your phone off."
Me: Not a problem- please email me the new "extra hours" rate you will be paying me from 6pm to 6am every day to leave my phone on, above my regular salary. Also note weekends are 1.5x the usual rate...
😉
The vast majority of surveyors out there base the cost of a project on the time it takes to do said project.?ÿ Time has been reduced over the years with new technology, depressing our wages, and worth.?ÿ We all need to base the cost of the project on the value to our clients, more than the time it takes to complete the task.?ÿ I have been doing that over the last 2 years, and I am much happier for it, and my clients don't care, because the work is done at a cost that is acceptable.
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BUT, it did not clow the work down.?ÿ Still months behind.
I like the value approach in theory but speculation can border on extortion if one is not careful.?ÿ We live in an age where the best of the best PLSs would never consider taking another PLSs sealed plat at face value.?ÿ If no professional is willing to use my plat to find someone's boundary but must instead resurvey the entire lot, how much value is my plat? Yes, it made the new surveyor feel better about their new survey, but in practical terms, my plat is only valuable at the time it was created.?ÿ?ÿ
So is the value of my survey proportional to the immediate needs of my client??ÿ?ÿ
I worry that estimates of the value of my service can create a paper trail of difficult to explain inconsistencies.
Although I'm told I'll never get rich billing by the hour, I do it anyway.?ÿ I don't give lump sum prices.?ÿ I provide my billing rates and tell the client: Based on similar surveys in the area, I estimate the costs will be at least $5000. Fees will be calculated based on the fee attached fee schedule.?ÿ
This works for me because I'm good about communicating with my clients and covering my butt with notes from phone conversations and hard copies of texts and emails that all end up in the job folder.?ÿ?ÿ
If plumbers can charge any amount they want, and get it,why would you do anything else?
Plumber neighbor told me, when asked"Hey Glenn, what are your hourly rates?"
"Anything I feel like."
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If plumbers can charge any amount they want, and get it,why would you do anything else?
You know that don't work in the real world. Which is more important, a survey or preventing the upstairs bathroom flooding the house with sewage? ?????ÿ
We live in an age where the best of the best PLSs would never consider taking another PLSs sealed plat at face value. If no professional is willing to use my plat to find someone's boundary but must instead resurvey the entire lot, how much value is my plat?
I don't think conducting fieldwork has anything to do with the trustworthiness of someone's map; monuments simply rank higher than a piece of paper.
I'll intercede here, but 10 years after getting licensed if you haven't risen to an employee situation @ 120k/yr including pension and health benefits,?ÿ or a sole proprietorship grossing 250k and netting 90k after taxes, etc.,?ÿ these days means you are not trying hard enough.?ÿ I've supported myself from age 18 by surveying and am now happily retired with more money than I can spend frugally.?ÿ My heirs are overjoyed and we're all involved in a race to the grave.
Yes I could be a one man show and service one client, but then I would have all my eggs in one basket and as stated I'm not comfortable with that scenario.?ÿ I survived the last recession because of my diversified client base.?ÿ?ÿ
Regarding the wages, I paid the asking wage, also pay full health insurance benefits for employees,?ÿ PTO, holidays, truck.?ÿ I have no problem paying, as long as I get what I'm paying for.?ÿ Which is someone who thinks, and gets the job done on time.?ÿ And that seems to be the problem.?ÿ I haven't found anyone who can think and/ or can get jobs done in a reasonable amount of time.?ÿ?ÿ
I know how long it takes me to do the work and I know how long it should take a chief.
And I don't take shortcuts in the field because those seconds saved in field add up to minutes and hours in office.
So yes send me a $30 hour chief that can think and produce and he's hired.
But I think I'm looking for a unicorn.
I won't argue with that, but you would still resurvey any lot regardless even if all called for monuments were ten foot stone monoliths with hardwired GNSS receivers attached to 15ft sleeved steel rods inserted in the center.
What I am getting at is that if you are trying to assign value to a plat, it is worthless in terms of being used to find corners unless the plat is created in a way that allows the owner to find his own corners.?ÿ A modern PLS will never use my plat to find and flag the corners.?ÿ Instead, the modern PLS will resurvey the lot and use my plat as guidance and evidence and that's not a bad thing.?ÿ The value of my plat is in terms of its potential to ward off boundary conflicts, increase the ability to sell and hopefully increase the sale price (this of course depends on the seller's ability to rein in the avarice of their real estate agent).?ÿ It's optional insurance that some people don't want or need.
Because value pricing requires one to assign value to the intangible, it becomes difficult to defend.?ÿ The shear volume of real estate transactions that occur without a survey and without any problems complicates the value assessment as well.?ÿ ?ÿ
?ÿ I mean just to net 100k a year you have to bill about $250k gross. That pays for a helper/I man,?ÿ health insurance, fuel, equipment, truck, surveying supplies, computer, software, accountant, personal property taxes, income taxes, with holding taxes, general liability insurance, professional liability insurance, workmans comp insurance, auto insurance, and every other Nickel and dime expense that comes with the business.
There are plenty of retired people with tons of experience that can take care of all of the above. ?ÿAnd they actually like that kind of stuff too! Hire a part time ??office manager? to handle all the superfluous crap that goes with the business aspect, spend the time you save training your I-man to do it the way you want it and live happily ever after. ?????ÿ
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Reading this makes me continue my confidence this is a right decision career change.
I don't want to be rich, just able to stay comfortable and frugal till I can't get out of bed one day.
Raising rates based on demand is good, but pricing based on value to the customer sounds dangerously like price gouging.?ÿ
Pricing based on demand should take quality of work into consideration. A good boundary surveyor willing to stick there neck out will be more in demand than a deed staker who runs from the slightest complication.?ÿ
The value of a plat varies considerably, both on location (recording vs. non recording and other considerations) and the quality of the information presented. A plat that just shows a boundary and monuments is worth a lot less than one that fully presents the reasoning behind the boundary resolution. In theory clients should be charged accordingly.?ÿ