My liability is the same either way.?ÿ My survey should stand the test of time.?ÿ I could be sued for a job I did in the 1980's no matter how many times that property or the adjoiners properties have changed hands.?ÿ An ALTA is an entirely different situation from the original post.
Your liability for a boundary survey already extends to the new owners, and the neighbors, and the users of the public right of way it borders....baring a state law limitation... Unless we are talking about an ALTA survey?
You are absolutely correct.?ÿ The original post, however, was for a standard single tract survey performed some time in the past.
This is true, but we were talking about surveying an existing parcel, not creating a new one. Also, the "cost" to create a new subdivision lot needs to include the cost to survey the boundary of the subdivision. Except for very large subdivisions the time required to determine the boundary usually?ÿ exceeds the time to calculate and monument the interior lots.?ÿ
In your example, even when the difficulties you mention arise, nine times out of ten it will take a fraction of the time to resurvey the modern subdivision lot compared to a similarly sized parcel that has no record of survey. The hard part was done for you by the subdividing surveyor.?ÿ
My experience with my normal lender is that the cost is lower the second, third and fourth time around because there is already a valid title policy in the files.?ÿ I have used the same tract of land for several mortgages where I was actually using the money to purchase a new tract which would, then, have no lien against it.?ÿ So long as I don't want to exceed the original lending limit, we are in business quickly.?ÿ One time I called the bank on Monday and closed my new purchase on Wednesday with no new fees except a few bucks for one form they had to file with some agency.?ÿ The original tract was purchased in 1987 and has never been paid off entirely.?ÿ I only owe a few thousand right now, so it's time to find another tract to buy.
Does the realtor, attorney, title company, appraiser, lender or any other business associated with the sale of the property charge a discounted fee for a service they provided on the same parcel in past years????ÿ The answer is NO.?ÿ
As a matter of fact they often do.?ÿ The answer is YES. Repeat business is a very important part of any marketing plan. Professionals often give breaks on fees for preferred clients. My wife's chiropractor, for example, recently waived fees for services she received that the insurance company refused to pay - she's been a patient for a number of years.?ÿ Grocery stores often have repeat shopper cards which yield discounts. Sandwich and coffee shops have punch cards to get a free one after ten visits, etc., etc. The examples are endless.
They never, well almost never ask.?ÿ
When I do an ALTA I use the language of the standard Certification which is well qualified. I don't like it but it is what it is and it's not over the top. Basically you are certifying that your map is in accordance with Minimum Standards and you field surveyed it xxx. It restricts your liability to that.?ÿ
When I do a local subdivision there is another required certification which is worse.?ÿ
But I don't do all that many, boundary surveys, corner records, ROS's, SEO filings, O&G plats get my standard statement and seal which doesn't include the words certify, accurate, correct, true or any of the other key words or phrases that surveyors have used to increase their liability.?ÿ
For example, well plats often have a phrase that the well is inside the spacing window and many certify to that. However, a surveyor can't actually know where the well is because he staked it. He may know where the stake is, but not where the well was drilled. Those can be in two very different locations.
So I don't file a well plat on a well, I file a well plat on a stake.?ÿ
It should be something a surveyor takes a hard look at. What exactly are you saying with the statements that you sign?
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Great post! They are just missing out on profit and some are good with that, amazingly.?ÿ Most surveyors I know should be charging 30-70% more than they are charging.?ÿ Some of the rates I've seen are amazingly low.
A general comment regarding all of this:?ÿ Surveyors should be charging fees based on the value of their service, not on how long it takes to do the work.?ÿ
Surveyors are professionals.?ÿ Professionals are awarded contracts based on their qualifications.?ÿ Quality based selection does not use price as a consideration.?ÿ Fee is negotiated after you are chosen to perform the work.
A client will provide a scope, and the professional will provide a fee.?ÿ The fee should be lump sum, with a deposit. There is no negotiation on the fee, unless the client reduces scope.?ÿ If the client wants to shop around for price, or refuses to provide a deposit, you dodged a bullet.?ÿ ?ÿ?ÿ
Remember this: there are no friends in business.
Here's my analogy on how business operates: If an experienced, well-connected attorney can solve your problem in 15 minutes, do you think he will only charge you for 15 minutes of his time??ÿ ?ÿ
Who gets to determine a "good" profit? If WA-ID can make that work, more power to him.?ÿ?ÿ
Look at it this way: You charge $10k and get 5 jobs. You charge $5k and get 15 jobs. Which one is a bigger win? The answer may be the 5 jobs. The overhead, liability, etc is lower, the profitability is higher.?ÿ
I prefer time and materials, not lump sum, but that is me. If WA-ID can make a lump sum work and make twice the profit, then my position is that his profitability is the only thing that guarantees that we will have surveyors in 20 years.
Your knowledge and expertise is the only thing you have that is worth anything (professionally speaking).
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I remember when I had a friend working in the IT business in the 90's. He got hired for a good sum of money, but half of his time was spent learning how to work software and learn how to implement, etc. He was paid to make himself more valuable. This is true in almost every industry, job or profession.?ÿ
We feel slighted when people offer what we perceive to be too little for our services. I realized that this had more to do with me than with them.
First, they do not know enough for me to internalize their opinions about my fees. I don't know enough to offer meaningful comments on theirs. (I almost always think I am paying too much for anything at all.)
Second, the problem is usually that I think I am charging too much. I feel some hesitancy. For me, this largely has to do with asking how much I would want to spend on my services. Since the number is zero, things are awkward. Once I realized this, and that my time is valuable, and that I am just as worthy of making a living as the other guy, it helped me a lot.
Why do you think you are charging too much? Either lower the rates or answer the question. Once we are confident in our worth, the slights of strangers have no effect.
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I am all for raising rates. Knowledge surveyors are a rare commodity. What I don't like is feeling like a sleazy salesman.?ÿ
A good profit is what results from providing a quality service and charging as much as the market will bare with transparent and honest billing. This means establishing a method of charging for your services that makes sense to you and your clients, and sticking to it. If your rates are based on your time, O.K. if your rates are based on a combination of your time and your perceived liability, O.K.?ÿ?ÿ
Where I see a problem is when surveyors?ÿ double charge for their?ÿ time and/or liability, just because they have the upper hand in the transaction.?ÿ
Was this directed at me? I don't disagree with this at all.?ÿ Too many surveyors service customers.
Unlike costumers who will return for a low price, clients need to be treated with respect, honesty and transparency
I'd like to attend the seminar you'll be giving but only at a reduced price.
If surveyors want to see an increase in fees they may want to rethink their opposition to a degree requirement.
Just call me a hypocrite.
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@nate-the-surveyor?ÿ ?ÿTwo old surveying principles: You don't prorate blunders and you can't update mistakes. Why would I want to do either?