Question for all who determine fee's

The rates are the rates. ?ÿExcept when I screw up. ?ÿThen the invoice is for what it should have been.

I figure what a job is going to take in terms of hours: Field, Office, PLS. Then multiply by our rate, and see how it feels. Some projects it is not nearly enough for what it is worth, others it is to high. If either of those are the case I will adjust accordingly maybe about 10% either way, and then provide a fixed fee.?ÿ

If it is one of those where I do not know what I am going to be getting into, could be a cake or could be a cow pie, then I will provide a range, and give them a rate sheet.

Rates are the rate. Unless we can get more.

When someone calls and asks "how much do you charge for a survey"? my standard answer is "As much as I can get".?ÿ?ÿ

My "hourly" rates are not set in stone, and are only a guide for me to use to see if the potentially agreed to price is worth taking the job or not.

I NEVER, EVER, EVER tell or show clients my "hourly" rates, it is none of their business.

I also, will NOT "bid" a job.?ÿ It is usually a price range with the caveat of it may be more or less, depending on what it takes to do the project correctly and completely.?ÿ?ÿ

I have a rate schedule that I use to estimate jobs, but most jobs are done on a fixed fee basis.?ÿ So sometimes I go over, and the effective rate drops. Most times I go over it's because I linger on the job. The rates get literally charged for extras, and often for construction staking.?ÿ?ÿ

FWIW, we just can't begin to do anything like a boundary survey around here for under a few thousand dollars (the filing fee alone is $400, and up).

90% of my work is based on fixed fee contracts.?ÿ I use my hourly rate sheet to develop those fees or to gut check what I think a job is worth.?ÿ I also include my rate sheet on fixed fee contracts.?ÿ If something outside of the original scope for the fixed fee is requested or an extenuating circumstance is encountered that work is all done hourly based on the rates unless the request is substantial enough to warrant a fixed fee contract amendment.?ÿ I use this method for both construction and boundary work.?ÿ My fixed fee's are always at or above?ÿthe?ÿhourly equivalent of my estimate so I stick to the rates pretty close unless I'm giving a "friends & family" discount or working with a Client that has 10 developments that needs survey's.?ÿ I'll dip below the standard rates then.

Posted by: Mark Mayer

I have a rate schedule that I use to estimate jobs, but most jobs are done on a fixed fee basis.?ÿ So sometimes I go over, and the effective rate drops. Most times I go over it's because I linger on the job. The rates get literally charged for extras, and often for construction staking.?ÿ?ÿ

FWIW, we just can't begin to do anything like a boundary survey around here for under a few thousand dollars (the filing fee alone is $400, and up).

I certainly understand. I don't do a lot of Lump Sump or Fixed Fee jobs simply because few around here would be able to withstand the sticker shock on the price since we have to factor in so many unknown variables. A simple recording fee here is typically about $8.50 but it can be marginally more but still way less than you.?ÿ

I only do business with corporate builders, no public or governmental work, or ALTA surveys. Therefore our prices are fixed for each survey task we do via purchase order. In housing construction all kinds of additional requests are made for miscellaneous items to be staked out, i.e.: entrance walls, retention ponds, recreation areas, guard house, etc. Our standard prices, which are paid promptly, are $295/hr. for a 2 man crew and $155/hr. for drafting and review.

I know some will scrutinize and make accusations with respect to this post. But I laugh all the way to the bank.?ÿ ??ÿ

For better or worse we are 95% hourly rate and 5% fixed fee.

We do stick to our standard published rates unless... we make a mistake - we have equipment problems - or if there is some other situation that is our fault.?ÿ

We stick to the scope - out of scope work is OKed by the client before it's accomplished (sometimes we'll gamble that it's OK to do something if we view it as mission critical, the client can't be reached, it's not a significant effort, and returning to do it later would be significantly more expensive).?ÿ?ÿ

Our indirect cost multiplier is over 3 (that is we multiply hourly wages by 3.xx to get employee bill out rate. We pay our staff as much as we feel we can and then we try to pay more.?ÿ

We charge for equipment ($xxx/day per antenna, robot, or digital level). We charge a daily rate for ATVs, snowmachines, Cobra, scanner, z-boat, sonarmite, etc.)

Our direct costs are invoice +10%

We have daily work reports that are available to the client which show crew, equipment, work description, fieldbook id/pages, hours, (but in 10 years nobody has ever asked to see them - the work description is partially visible in the equipment logs, mileage logs, & per diem logs)

It's not as profitable as fixed fee work but it's safer for the client and safer for us given the # of factors that are out of our control (weather, air travel, unanticipated factors).?ÿ

Having said that - I like fixed fee when I have control of most variables - easier to invoice and there's potential for more profit.

Posted by: FL/GA PLS.

I only do business with corporate builders, no public or governmental work, or ALTA surveys. Therefore our prices are fixed for each survey task we do via purchase order. In housing construction all kinds of additional requests are made for miscellaneous items to be staked out, i.e.: entrance walls, retention ponds, recreation areas, guard house, etc. Our standard prices, which are paid promptly, are $295/hr. for a 2 man crew and $155/hr. for drafting and review.

I know some will scrutinize and make accusations with respect to this post. But I laugh all the way to the bank.?ÿ ??ÿ

Good for you!!

I'm not sure why anyone would scrutinize or make accusations - I wish more surveyors would charge what you charge, or more.?ÿ

It never ceases to amaze me how many "professionals" are happily selling themselves and the profession short by charging laughable fees for their services.?ÿ

Posted by: FL/GA PLS.

I only do business with corporate builders, no public or governmental work, or ALTA surveys. Therefore our prices are fixed for each survey task we do via purchase order. In housing construction all kinds of additional requests are made for miscellaneous items to be staked out, i.e.: entrance walls, retention ponds, recreation areas, guard house, etc. Our standard prices, which are paid promptly, are $295/hr. for a 2 man crew and $155/hr. for drafting and review.

I know some will scrutinize and make accusations with respect to this post. But I laugh all the way to the bank.?ÿ ??ÿ

You are DA MAN!

As my little fat buddy in Cairo, Georgia would say; "You go dog"!

Posted by: JKinAK

For better or worse we are 95% hourly rate and 5% fixed fee.

We do stick to our standard published rates unless... we make a mistake - we have equipment problems - or if there is some other situation that is our fault.?ÿ

We stick to the scope - out of scope work is OKed by the client before it's accomplished (sometimes we'll gamble that it's OK to do something if we view it as mission critical, the client can't be reached, it's not a significant effort, and returning to do it later would be significantly more expensive).?ÿ?ÿ

Our indirect cost multiplier is over 3 (that is we multiply hourly wages by 3.xx to get employee bill out rate. We pay our staff as much as we feel we can and then we try to pay more.?ÿ

We charge for equipment ($xxx/day per antenna, robot, or digital level). We charge a daily rate for ATVs, snowmachines, Cobra, scanner, z-boat, sonarmite, etc.)

Our direct costs are invoice +10%

We have daily work reports that are available to the client which show crew, equipment, work description, fieldbook id/pages, hours, (but in 10 years nobody has ever asked to see them - the work description is partially visible in the equipment logs, mileage logs, & per diem logs)

It's not as profitable as fixed fee work but it's safer for the client and safer for us given the # of factors that are out of our control (weather, air travel, unanticipated factors).?ÿ

Having said that - I like fixed fee when I have control of most variables - easier to invoice and there's potential for more profit.

I like Fixed Fee, Aka; Lump Sum & I also like T&M jobs but I rarely get either.

Most of my stuff, probably 95% is hourly with a 15% Invoice markup for any materials that are not anticipated, such as metal T-Posts. But again I rarely encounter those situations.?ÿ

Combination of parts of Brian Allen and Mark Mayer's responses.

I use an hourly rate that I have established over time as a means of estimating the cost of the job.?ÿ The same rate is used for any aspect of the job from drafting to research to field.?ÿ I then add a little or lot of padding based on how comfortable I feel that I know the area.?ÿ That price is provided as the cost of the survey and I stick to it.?ÿ Like Mark, that means a true hourly rate fluctuates.?ÿ But, I can understand that people want to know the price beforehand.?ÿ Even though so many variables can come up in a survey, I wouldn't want to hire someone without a good idea of the cost.

Very occasionally there will be one that I just can't get a fuzzy feeling about putting a number to.?ÿ I have never had one of those potential clients agree to an open-ended final fee based on whatever it takes to get the job done (the good news on that is I've never lost money on one of those either).

?ÿ

People call me asking for T&M, Not to Exceed prices all the time. I explain that T&M will always expand until the NTE figure is met.?ÿ So I tell them that I am giving fixed fee, which is what they really want. In practice the only difference between T&M, NTE and fixed fee is the complexity of the invoicing.

Back when I was in the private sector (like, 3 weeks ago) we preferred lump sum value pricing. I did 'run the numbers', primarily to ensure I charged enough. T & M was reserved for very large construction jobs. The rate was as loaded as possible. The other option was negotiated hours and certified rates for transportation. Most of us have some method to our madness, we just need to see the value of our services and charge accordingly.

Consider this paraphrase by a banker as he discusses a loan with Joe Surveyor...

Banker: So let me make sure I understand you. You are struggling to compete and still make money. You want me to loan you money so you can buy a whizbangroboticgpslidarmachine. Then you plan to cut your billable hours on t and m jobs and your fixed fee on the lump sum jobs. Is that your plan?

Joe Surveyor: Yes sir. Nobody will price lower than me.

Banker: And you think this will incrwase your profits?

Joe Surveyor: Absolutely. The secret is volume business....

Banker: We'll get back to you....

We have all run into some of our peers who have the volume pricing business model and I gotta tell ya I have absolutely nothing but contempt for that.?ÿ

Unfortunately it seems to be those kinds of business that drive the local markets most everywhere.?ÿ

Too many Surveyors use the Junior Samples Used Car Lot Business Model. " We lose money on every sale but make up for it with volume."

Like many of you I use predominately (95%) fixed fee pricing for my surveying work.?ÿ Those that I don't are long term clients that have been with our firm pretty much since I came on board (26 years ago).?ÿ?ÿ

Just as a follow up to everyone participating in this discussion:?ÿ?ÿHow do you determine your rates??ÿ Is it arbitrary or have you done the mathematics on what your employees actually cost you per hour??ÿ What multiplier do you use (i.e. actual employee cost x multiplier) to determine your hourly rate(s) for that employee or crew??ÿ Do you routinely review the time spent by your employees to determine if a job was profitable??ÿ Lastly, and probably most importantly how careful are you about tracking your own personal time on jobs?

@just-a-surveyor

"As my little fat buddy in Cairo, Georgia....."

Cairo's just a short hop from Whigham. Used to go with my Father in law to visit his kin and go to rattlesnake roundup at the high school every year. Loved it!?ÿ ??ÿ