imaudigger, post: 341376, member: 7286 wrote: In my opinion those rules are seriously crossing the line into personal time. When I'm off the clock, I choose how to sleep and what I will eat. Otherwise it's not my personal time and I should be compensated for having to abide by your rules.
Not that I would want to sleep on the floor and eat popcorn...
I think the everyone must sleep in a bed is a great rule, its keeps some of the field crew from being bullied into sharing a room and sleeping of the floor.
I consider time that I'm not being paid as my personal time. I choose how I will sleep and what I will eat. Not that I would ever want to sleep on the floor or eat popcorn for dinner.
In construction, many times employees get paid a per diem rate established by the state. It is part of their income. It is extremely common to see guys parking their camper at or near the job site to save money. Perhaps they will rent a space at a trailer park. Others get together and rent a house for the duration of the project.
If their boss tried to tell them where they could sleep and what they were to eat...There would be some choice words that start with f and end with u.
It is perfectly acceptable for the employee to stay and spend their per diem as they wish.
I've stayed with as many as 8 others in a trailer house and it was pretty much setup like a bunk house.
For my fist gig I stayed in a tent under tarps at a government lake for 6mos. It was free and had to move to another spot every month because of some rule.
arctan(x), post: 341341, member: 6795 wrote: Consider the following scenario.
Employee A makes $100 in per diem and stays in a hotel that cost $60 per day. That leaves him making $40 from his per diem pay.
Employee B makes $100 in per diem and stays in a camper trailer that cost $16.67 per day....
Yes, fair. To a point. Employee B maybe isn't going to have a place to plug in and charge the batteries, or maybe take a shower, etc. etc. So taking care of some things might fall disproportionately on Employee A. Which isn't so fair.
But if employee A wanted to spend $80 on a nice room, and B was willing to go downscale for $60 and pocket the difference, I have no problem with that.
The other option is the company just pays and they stay in a resort for $150. Is that fair to the client? Or you put them up in a flophouse for $35. Is that fair to them?
I second using the http://www.gsa.gov/portal/category/100120&apos ;">GSA Rates and letting them decide how to spend it. That's the American way. It's fair to everybody. The companies that I have worked for that did it that way had no problems, including no problems getting people to go out of town. The companies I worked for that didn't do it had a lot of discontent with out of town work.
Each employee should be paid a per diem that is sufficient to purchase a single bed hotel room and eat 3 meals a day. If they get bullied into giving part of their income to someone else who in turn makes them sleep on the bathroom floor....sounds like there may be bigger problems. We are not talking about child labor are we?
Norman Oklahoma, post: 341388, member: 9981 wrote: ....The companies I worked for......had a lot of discontent with out of town work.
Just reminded me of a (not so) funny story that happened years ago (1976), here goes...
We were doing miles of county road work in Woodward County, OK. We had two rooms at THE cheap motel in Mooreland, OK. I had six guys (seven total) and one 1969 Chevy Suburban. The rooms did not have a telephone. There was one pay telephone at the office, but they closed at 10PM.
I had one fella that had never worked out of town before and had just recently gotten married. He had to call his wife at least thirty times a day. After the office closed of an evening, he had gotten in the habit of borrowing the Chevy to drive down the street to the pay phone outside of the police department. I didn't mind. It kept him from laying on the floor by the door and howling sadly for his wiffy. One evening after 10PM he asked for the keys and left. Since he was staying in a different room than myself, I really didn't know what time he would get back to the motel.
Early the next morning I'm awakened by one of Mooreland's finest. My boss has gotten to work in OKC and found the Suburban sitting in the parking lot with the keys in it. He called the Mooreland PD to come roust us and see what sort of shenanigans were going on....I had no clue. Apparently my rodman had gotten so homesick he drove the ONLY truck we had all the way back to OKC...presumably quitting in the process.
What in the hell do you do with 5 guys and no truck or equipment in Mooreland, Ok.?
It took all day for the boss to drive up there, pick up one of the guys and take him back to OKC to retrieve the Chevy and equipment. I never let anybody "borrow" my truck anymore when I'm out of town. One truly LOST day, fer sure...
Clearly I have it pretty good, the company pays for the rooms in advance (whatever that costs). We eat pretty much whatever we want which I put on mg my personal card and collect points for. I fill out reimbursement forms weekly and get paid. I've not been told to dial it back much and we eat pretty dang good.
But I've camped in Big Sur CA in the summer with the flies on a job once so there is that.
arctan(x), post: 341341, member: 6795 wrote: Consider the following scenario.
Employee A makes $100 in per diem and stays in a hotel that cost $60 per day. That leaves him making $40 from his per diem pay.
Employee B makes $100 in per diem and stays in a camper trailer that cost $16.67 per day ($500/month). That leaves him making $83.33 from his per diem pay.Is this just the way it is? Is this fair to my client/employees? If I get all my employees to stay in a camper trailer then I think I would be overcharging my client. If I go with a lower per diem rate then my guys that stay in a hotel aren't making enough to cover their rooms and meals...
Any thoughts on the matter will be appreciated.
You're thinking wrong. That $16.67 per day is the cost of the camping space. You would have to include the cost of owning the camper, insurance and licensing on the camper, the cost of propane for heating and cooking and the cost to get it to and from the campground. Very often the camper needs a larger, more powerful, more expensive vehicle with higher per mile costs.
If you asked me to do it, you would also be paying me for any excess mileage to this workplace, than from my home to the office. In fact since driving to this worksite is not commuting, IRS regs may require full mileage reimbursement.
Paul in PA
In the above instance, employee A & B are both getting $100 of income. Plain and simple.
In the free world, an employer cannot tell an employee how to spend their income.
It is wrong to think that it is somehow unfair to the other employees that someone is being frugal with their income. If someone wants to cry because they had steak and eggs instead of oatmeal...send them over to TDD's bunker for basic training.
If it is mandated via. prevailing wage laws, it is straight income.
If it's a benefit only, then the employer might be able to attach conditions and rules as long as the per diem isn't given as straight income.
Employer would have to operate it on a reimbursement/prepaid type arrangement.
I understand what you're saying, however, I'm not sending these guys out of town to have them put themselves in conditions where their productivity is jeopardized. If you starve yourself to pocket per diem money, you'll be out of a job pretty quick.
Projects that pay better than another always cause friction among the crews. It's a condition to be avoided if you can. You've got to put your best people on the project that needs 'em though, even if it means the B crew is making more $ for awhile. Hopefully your best staff are normally paid more than the B crew, which helps balance things out.
imaudigger, post: 341393, member: 7286 wrote: Each employee should be paid a per diem that is sufficient to purchase a single bed hotel room and eat 3 meals a day. If they get bullied into giving part of their income to someone else who in turn makes them sleep on the bathroom floor....sounds like there may be bigger problems. We are not talking about child labor are we?
No we do not employ anyone under the age of 18, I dont even know why you would bring child labor into this conversation.
Now we have had grown men in the past that act like children. Our field crews usually work 6-2, and if you would call him up at 4 asking him a question on his field work he would whine like a little kid saying I am off the clock this is my personal time, I will answer that question tomorrow at the office. Or he would whine about his hours I worked 45 hours last week but my paycheck only has 40 down. Well yes you come in unload the truck, download the data, talk to the CAD guy if he has any questions. After that if you want to stick around and talk to anyone that is on your time.
Our system is straight reimbursement for the hotel room and meals, 7 for breakfast, 11 for lunch, 23 for dinner and 5 for incidentals (that is the tip you leave for the chamber maid). That adds up to 46. The State says it conforms with the Federal rules but they really only do that when it benefits them. Under the Federal rules per diem (doesn't include hotel) is 46 per day except for travel days then it is a percentage. The hotel rates vary depending upon where you travel to. The State, however, only pays up to a maximum of 90/night plus tax for hotels whereas the lowest GSA rate for California is 96. We do have high rate counties (up to 140) but I rarely get sent to those. Sometimes it is necessary to cross the County line to a high rate county to be able to get a room. I am not a kid, I am not staying in a flea bag and I am not doubling up. Frock that. You want me to travel away from my family then you will get me a decent hotel room which I share with no one.
Direct reembusment of rooms up to 115% of the federal per diem rate. And the fedaral daily rate for meals. This is about $58 dollars a day. On the first and last day of travel it is 3/4 or the rate. Hotels are paid with a company card.
I brought up the child labor because I don't know of too many adults that could be bullied into giving part of their paycheck to pay for a single room (to be shared by a bunch of guys), then be made to sleep on the floor. More of a joke than anything.
imaudigger, post: 341500, member: 7286 wrote: I brought up the child labor because I don't know of too many adults that could be bullied into giving part of their paycheck to pay for a single room (to be shared by a bunch of guys), then be made to sleep on the floor. More of a joke than anything.
You should read up on the Miami Dolphins about Richie Incogntio and Jonathan Martin, both grown men.
Ya, I'm not sure what to think about that...I mean how difficult is it to block someone's cell number? Takes about 2 seconds. No more harassing text messages. I realize that everybody had different levels of self respect. But honestly - I highly doubt you would hire a single one of those scum bag football -players. Any honest person that was around that guy for a single day probably knew what a jerk he was.
Can't resist telling it how it used to be.
On my first survey job at Williams and Works in Grand Rapids, MI, the party chief was in control of everything. We stayed 3 to a room... rod man on a roll-a-way. We ate when and where the PC decided. Some nights that was a couple of six packs of his favorite brew and hit the fast food joint.
I'm pretty sure that's how he came up. I worked there for three years and left as instrument man. Learned a lot from that crusty old SOB. That's how it was in the mid sixties for me.
Last job I had, everything went through a company credit card. If you couldn't put it on a card, a receipt would get you a refund. Lost receipts were frowned upon. But that was the General Electric way! They had a program that set an acceptable level of per diem for each city in each state. Pretty easy to stay within the guidelines. Very generous. However, they did not like the idea of employees making a profit off their out of town living expenses.
However, they did not like the idea of employees making a profit off their out of town living expenses.
I'll bet it was people that never had to go out of town that complained the loudest, too. Ask one of them to go out of town for a few days.....many of them will have a cow. Who will watch my dogs? Where do I have to stay? ....etc.
Same in my organization. Every now and then there is the rumblings of a complaint from some desk jockey who cannot BELIEVE the money that field surveyors make. Of course the field surveyors are working 80-hours weeks out of town for weeks or months at a time in all weather. And you'd be lucky to get some of these desk jockeys to give you an honest 8 in a warm office...