I just had a phone call from another survey firm wanting any information I had in an area that we frequently work in. These guys are from close to 2 hours away from the job they are doing, and it is a 1.25 acre tract in an unrecorded subdivision (common in FL-don't ask) that is described as fraction/aliquot parts of a section of land. For a new firm, never having worked out there, this would be a costly endeavor. The guy noted there were no records of section corners on our state's registration service and the clerk of courts did not have a copy of the old unrecorded plats. My family's business has been working in this area since the late 60's, so we have amassed a huge database of records in that time, that cost quite a bit of money over there years, I'm sure. Basically the guy wants me to hand over all my control so he can beat me out of a survey in my backyard, or at least that's the way I feel. Anyhow, they seem to work for some kind of contract crew service as they brag about having crews located in "every county in the state" (which in FL would mean they'd have over 60 crews!). Seems like they may be one of those brokerage firms. In the past, I've helped out several of my fellow UF graduates who were working for what I termed "legitimate" surveying business. This one seems just a bit "hokie" if you get my drift, and it seems like I'd be cutting my own throat, but I know we're supposed to be "professionals". Where do you draw the line and simply tell the guy to pound sand? Your thoughts are appreciated.
Tell him the invoice for the requested info will be $##### paid in advance, of course....
Tell him you will be more than happy to check the corners he set after he finished the survey, and if you dont find the corners you will be happy to let the board know.
It sounds like a completely different type of situation but I have asked a LOT of surveyors in Georgia for unrecorded survey information. We did mostly engineering surveys and could be in several counties. I "generally" knew the surveyors (from SAMSOG) so they knew I wasn't there to low ball them (we were probably more expensive) and almost always got any info I needed. Of course the reverse is true, I supplied a lot of data to other surveyors (including control for construction staking). On one occasion I remember a surveyor wanting me to pay $50 for a copy of a 1/2 acre survey, which I declined. Within two weeks he called me wanting some data from us. I reminded him of the $50 then politely gave him the data he requested. Sometimes you just have to take the high road.
Andy
If they were a local surveyor I might give them the info hoping they would reciprocate. Being that you will probably never see the crew again or get any assistance from them, I would let them develop their own data. Or as Rankin said, let them pay through the nose.
Rankin_File, post: 359694, member: 101 wrote: Tell him the invoice for the requested info will be $##### paid in advance, of course....
Agree on the notion of getting paid for your services which could be. Processing time for research, Flat cost for a control network (which if it were me I would still have to measure, verify and double check), base map with broken down sections? map with previously found monuments they could go look for?
A few long time family firms around here will do research in there records for a hourly rate etc.
Maybe they would hire you to be a sub?
I really try to take requests like this on a case by case basis but I would much rather have another surveyor look at my work and come to the same conclusions.
I run into this problem, occasionally, primarily from my former place of employment. They will not release information to me, even though I am the Surveyor of Record, without attempting to charge me. I have not paid for anything, but instead I inform the client, who might be the same client that I worked for at there!
I will share almost anything with almost anyone, once the client has agreed. If it's working plan information between other surveyors, locally, anything goes 😉
It is a cornerstone of our Profession to "follow in the footsteps." If you're going to hide your info how can anyone follow? It's like brushing out your tracks and burying your monuments underground.
I can only assume it's so you can say "gotcha!"
Dtp
Do you work for free? If so, does it matter whom you work for?
If this firm has surveyors in every county, why is one from several counties away doing the work?
Around here the county clerk/recorders are under no obligation to do other's research.
Even to them the answer would most likely be know.
Paul in PA
I like the idea of having them pay for your time to recover and collate the data. There is a local guy around here who owns some invaluable records and he has no issue charging for their recovery, and no one minds paying.
Perhaps you will get a call to fix the mistakes it sounds like they will make without all the requisite local knowledge.
foggyidea, post: 359706, member: 155 wrote: ......It is a cornerstone of our Profession to "follow in the footsteps." If you're going to hide your info how can anyone follow? It's like brushing out your tracks and burying your monuments underground.
I can only assume it's so you can say "gotcha!"Dtp
These guys don't sound too "professional" though. Initially I was going to say sure go ahead and share it, but by the time I got to the end of his post and saw the part about 60 contract crews I kind of changed my mind. That kind of business model will kill the profession eventually. Prices would be driven extremely low, and I have to believe the product would be crap....
If a licensed surveyor calls asking for a specific plat I would extend them the professional courtesy of providing it at no cost. From your statement it seems like they are not asking for a specific piece of information so I would charge them for my time. Keeping records is a costly endeavor and if you don't value your time then your time has no value.
I have a relationship with most of the surveyors around here and we usually help each other out, but we don't abuse the privilege. If I knew I had gotten a job over another firm because I had a lower price, there's no way I'd call them and ask for help.
Paul in PA, post: 359707, member: 236 wrote: Do you work for free? If so, does it matter whom you work for?
If this firm has surveyors in every county, why is one from several counties away doing the work?
Around here the county clerk/recorders are under no obligation to do other's research.
Even to them the answer would most likely be know.
Paul in PA
They have CREWS in every county, NOT SURVEYORS. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. Their home base is actually about 2 hrs from my office, but they claim to cover the entire state of FL.
I also don't think they are "contract crews" as one alluded to, b/c that's illegal here in FL (supposedly, but this is cutting a pretty thin line if you ask me). I got the low down on how they operate, and they are basically one of the brokerages. I know a guy who used to work for them, and he NEVER met his boss, nor anyone who worked for the same firm except his instrument man whom he hired himself when he got the job to work there. He was with them for 3 years before "the crash" and he's no longer surveying. Said they had him doing some pretty shoddy work, but he wasn't an LS, so it was just time and a paycheck to him. It's borderline contract crew if you ask me...which as stated, isn't legal...
I never call and ask for help until AFTER I've done my own research and gone to the field, unless I have an excellent relationship with a colleague AND know he's been close AND only if I'm REALLY hungry, otherwise, at 2 hours away, I recommend someone else for the very reasons you state. I work in two other counties quite a bit and have tried to develop working relationships with the other surveyors there and it seems quite nice. They have a niche and when I have a job that comes in that is in their niche, I typically, unless I'm really hungry, refer the job to one of them and conversely, I get the bigger jobs they don't want to fight.
Around here we share information when someone runs across a possible problem or questions. But I would never ask for information just to make my work easyer.
I would ask them for details about what they are doing. Then figure what it would cost you to do the work if you wee them and what if it was you with your research.
That is: Charge them the difference. If your research is going to save them 5 hours of field work. That's what you charge for information.
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"The guy noted there were no records of section corners on our state's registration service and the clerk of courts did not have a copy of the old unrecorded plats."
The plats are not recorded. That's why the clerk doesn't have them!
Steve Gilbert, post: 359744, member: 111 wrote: "The guy noted there were no records of section corners on our state's registration service and the clerk of courts did not have a copy of the old unrecorded plats."
The plats are not recorded. That's why the clerk doesn't have them!
That's not entirely true. Some counties here actually have them. The county I reside in, does not. The counties north and west of me all have unrecorded plat books that you can go look through and pick out the old plats.
I hate to help a jack leg out, but my inclination to go ahead and help them out is in direct proportion to how much harm I think they are going to do in the long run if they just go in there winging and fâÂ#k everything up.
You state that your business has amassed records over the years, that implies that obtaining at least some portion of those records had some direct costs. There are also the ongoing costs of cataloging in your databases, storage, and maintenance. Obviously there is some value to having such records and I see nothing wrong with recouping some of that value. Your time also has value and this outfit seems to want you to spend your time to go through your files and gather together all info that might be relevant. You also don't seem to believe that doing this outfit the favor of spending your time & resources will result in any kind of an ongoing reciprocal professional relationship.
Under the circumstances, I say that you let them know what your hourly rate is and an estimate of the time it would take to fulfill their request. Tell them to show up with their checkbook and you will be more than happy to help. If nothing else, that should get them to narrow their request for just what they actually need.
For those who simply refuse to pay for survey info from other surveyors, if you know that the info may or will have an impact on the results of your survey, how do you justify simply refusing to pay and then moving forward without the info and not informing your client to give them the opportunity to make an informed decision as to whether to pay for the info?
I'm not speaking as one who owns and charges for unrecorded survey info because I don't own any save for the few copies I've obtained from others (some purchased, some given). It seems to me that it's not so much the surveyor asking to be compensated for his time or for the value of the info provided who is providing a disservice to the person who is paying for the survey, but rather the surveyor who refuses on principle to pay and does not afford his client the opportunity to decide whether or not he wants his survey performed with the benefit of the information offered at a price.
I had a surveyor from a large multistate firm underbid my fee for an ALTA. He went to the DPW looking for the road layouts and the DPW sent him to me since my office is where the DPW goes when they need a copy of a layout.
I gave the fellow a good 90 minutes of time. Provided him with the layouts and a few adjacent subdivisions.
A week later I saw a crew from the firm about 2 miles from locus. Later in the day I saw them about 1 mile. By noon they were in front of my office. So I went out to say hi.
They were running a 2 mile trig level. Not sure if they returned to close it or not.
There is an excellent BM about 800 feet from the site. Guess I could have shown that big time surveyor the NGS website, the MassDOT survey site or even the then applicable FIRM maps as this BM is published everywhere.
Instead I smiled and wondered if they would catch the 10' bust in the boundary that we resolved years ago.
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