Potential customer wants to know why I have declined their short plat work, and I'm not sure how to respond, or if I should.
The red flag for me is that "we just need some measurements and my engineers will do the drawing and run it through the city."
It seems to me that the engineers are suggesting an unethical course of action, namely that they would like to put a design on top of my stamp on a blank short plat. Seems like licensed engineers should know better.
The counteroffer was for me to submit a quote for what it would take to do the drawing and run it through the city. Not interested there, either. I would quote something "too much" and that would be that, and if I did take it, it would still be working with the same engineers, who have already shown their kiss of death and willingness to flaunt rules.?ÿ?ÿ
Ideally one would be able to explain the ethical considerations, educate the public, help the customer. But the customer already bought the place without a survey, doesn't care about the mess of undocumented easements my initial research found, already complained to me about how all those other surveyors wanted "too much" to do this "simple job". Can you educate someone like that? is it one of those "never teach a pig to sing" situations?
I could respond with "I just ain't feeling the feeling on this project."
I could also respond with "what your engineers are proposing is highly unethical and a violation of state statutes."
What would you do??ÿ
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Regrettably my current work load would be in conflict and I feel that I would not be able to provide you with the service you require.
I could also respond with "what your engineers are proposing is highly unethical and a violation of state statutes."
That is EXACTLY what I would tell them, but I might include a link to that statute to prove the point. I don't see any reason to beat around the bush. You'd be better serving them as a citizen because that simple statement is honest and may even lead to their education of how the laws work. Seems to me if the client entered into a deal with the engineer knowing that their services were being provided in violation of the law, that client could also be held accountable and you are actually raising a legitimate red flag. I would rather tell them the honest truth and piss them off than to give them some random excuse which may lead to them hiring a nefarious company and making things worse.
"What would you do?"
Thank them for their consideration of utilizing your services, decline the project, and suggest the "engineers" solicit another PLS of their choice to provide them with the information requested.?ÿ
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Ditto
I have sold Engineering Co the data they ask me to collect and they never ask me to sign an incomplete drawing.
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Ditto
I have sold Engineering Co the data they ask me to collect and they never ask me to sign an incomplete drawing.
Me too.?ÿ It's my understanding there are states stopping this, but it's?ÿSOP around here.?ÿ?ÿA pretty?ÿbig piece of our surveying pie.?ÿ The deliverables haven't even been on paper for 15+ years.?ÿ A point file, a TIN, and?ÿCAD file.
If your statute doesn't allow?ÿthese field data/topo transactions?ÿyour engineer is committing?ÿan ethics violation by asking you to commit one in my opinion. I?ÿwouldn't?ÿturn him/her in, but I would educate individual.
Steve
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I do not think any amount of money could get me to take this one. I agree with?ÿ what FL/GA said!
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Hm. Maybe I am missing something in the communications with the customer. My red flag is that they "just need some measurements" and then they will do the rest -- draw the lot lines and produce the short plat document, which would then need a surveyor's stamp, presumably mine. At which point I would be stamping something produced not under my direction.
I don't doubt that in some places, possibly including here in my state, that there is some kind of informal workflow between consulting surveyor and engineering company that works just fine and the work remains supervised and reviewed. In some ways I'd rather they made the drawing, if they have their own CAD wizards. That could be a cozy arrangement with everyone doing what they do best. That's not the picture I'm getting here, though. More like "we just need some data, why is it so expensive?" and "Yeah whatever, we don't care about the unrecorded easements you note, we just need some data."?ÿ
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What is "short plat work"??ÿ Are they asking you to do a boundary plat, stamp to it, and then they do their design off of it??ÿ Or are they asking you to do some topo work and not tie it to boundary??ÿ If you are doing topography, but not doing boundary work do you have to stamp to it?
Sorry, I don't think I know what you're being asked to do.?ÿ (I probably don't need to know, but I am just curious what we're talking about here)
They want to divide a lot with an existing house and build a second house. In their location they need a "short subdivision" aka short plat, to do so. Exhibit of old lot and old legal, exhibit of new lots with new legals. That document must be produced and stamped by an LS. They also want an as-built, so they can offset some lines from the back of the existing house to make the new lot lines and setbacks, and a topo, so they can design the new house and its service connections.
If you are interested at all; ask to talk directly with the engineer.?ÿ Who knows what the client has gotten?ÿwrong.
@half bubble Thank you.?ÿ I understand what the big deal is now.
I agree with the general consensus that you tell them the truth.?ÿ That you aren't certain about the legality of what they are proposing and couldn't take on the job for that reason.?ÿ They should be put on notice if it's possibly not legit to do it that way.?ÿ No beating around the bush or pretending that you don't have time.
(I see the "@" thing doesn't work the way it used to either.?ÿ I suspect Wendell's all up on that, though)
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I've done something similar, but it was always done with an engineer that I was comfortable working with and we worked close together to get the product out.
?ÿAt which point I would be stamping something produced not under my direction.
I would never stamp something like this; that didn't show easements that I knew were there. If your not providing direction, you're not doing your job...
Make sure your contract provides compensation for each review you need to do, to ensure what you're signing meets your standards.
Never negotiate price; if they don't want to pay your fees, they can go somewhere else.
Dougie
In Texas, any worksheet, plot plan and/or deliverable hard copy is required to be signed and stamped.
It can have the "preliminary drawing only" disclaimer to the side if needed.
For a topo, I simply send the electronic data file to the paying client.
When they require an asbuilt, I send them a completed boundary survey and an electronic data file.
Many times the client will ask for as little as they can get away with and temp the surveyor to do something illegal.
Remind the engineer of your minimum duty as required by your State BOR.
In Texas, any worksheet, plot plan and/or deliverable hard copy is required to be signed and stamped.
It can have the "preliminary drawing only" disclaimer to the side if needed.
For a topo, I simply send the electronic data file to the paying client.
When they require an asbuilt, I send them a completed boundary survey and an electronic data file.
Many times the client will ask for as little as they can get away with and temp the surveyor to do something illegal.
Remind the engineer of your minimum duty as required by your State BOR.
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I wondered about that. Thanks, AH
Dougie nailed it. Heed his warning and concerns. You have to think about your reputation, license and livelihood. Not to mention karma. I wouldn't hesitate to tell the client that they should try someone else (don't send them to me) because you are not comfortable with the arrangements. I wouldn't mess with the engineer unless they call you directly and then let them have it. Engineers around here don't have to do continuing education so I find that they don't understand the subdivision process and certainly the law. And I bet their E&O doesn't cover them for what they are doing.?ÿ
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I'd like to think that trying to educate the client and/or their engineer would be a productive and rewarding route.?ÿ Unfortunately, their comment about other surveyors wanting too much for a simple job tells me that your instinct about not trying to teach a pig to sing is right on the mark and that any attempt to educate will be an exercise in frustration.?ÿ Much more so if you were to get the job.
If you feel that you owe them any explanation, just spend a couple minutes going through the steps you would need to take and be in control of in order to be comfortable doing the job.?ÿ In other words, that you supply the complete survey-related product or nothing.?ÿ As to going off on the questionable ethics of the proposed situation, again that singing pig thing.?ÿ You likely won't get through to them in any meaningful way by making any strong or definitive statements as to the ethics.?ÿ You could cite liability reasons and maybe just mention that you have a concern that it may violate State ethics rules and leave it at that.?ÿ
Toss out a ballpark figure of at least double what you think it would cost if everything that could complicate it actually happened.?ÿ At that point they will want to end the conversation and you can thank them for their time.?ÿ They may remember you as the most expensive of all the expensive surveyors, but hopefully they will also recall that you were otherwise polite and professional.
But then I worked for at least one surveyor who would have listened to a point just beyond "a few measurements to provide to my engineer", simply said "Not interested" and hung up.?ÿ That's effective too.
They want to divide a lot with an existing house and build a second house. In their location they need a "short subdivision" aka short plat, to do so. Exhibit of old lot and old legal, exhibit of new lots with new legals. That document must be produced and stamped by an LS. They also want an as-built, so they can offset some lines from the back of the existing house to make the new lot lines and setbacks, and a topo, so they can design the new house and its service connections.
I see two separate jobs here. You can produce and stamp the short subdivision for the client. And then you can contract with the engineering firm to create the asbuilt/topo. One survey, two separate deliverables.
Made an architect nearly explode when he wanted my electronic data of an ALTA survey from two years earlier. ?ÿHis main complaint was that they would need to pay someone (on their nickel) to re shoot everything. ?ÿI then began to give him at least a dozen things that had changed since the time of the ALTA, including the construction of new roads, etc. surrounding the rather small, bare tract.
Dan's quote under this post is fairly appropriate.?ÿ The entire scope of services is Land Surveying.?ÿ Farming out these services to engineers is part of what kills the surveying profession, along with failure to charge properly for providing same.?ÿ Surveyor charges a few hundred bucks and spends a day, engineer charges a few thousand and spends an hour or two.?ÿ Why?, because engineers know business.?ÿ
The way it should go??ÿ Surveyor provides all the mentioned services for a few thousand (or more depending on circumstances), including representing client for subdivision approval.?ÿ Shares the file with engineers so they can design the building (and on site sewage treatment if needed) to the topography/regulatory setbacks?ÿand make their map, and represent the client for those approvals; I don't care what they charge for that.
